Celestial Patron Warlock, Blade Pact

Warpiglet

Adventurer
I ran a comparison of wizard versus warlock spellcasting for a friend. The interesting thing is that if you add up total number of spell levels available (including Arcane Recovery, Spell Mastery, Mystic Arcanum and Eldritch Master), assuming the design assumption of 2 short rests per day, the totals for the two classes are very comparable. Some levels wizard is higher, some levels warlock is higher, but overall neither is higher. Contrary to popular belief, warlock really is designed as a full caster. Of course there are differences. The wizard gets more low-level spells; the warlock gets more higher level spells. The wizard eventually gets and extra 6th and 7th level spell; the warlock doesn't. But if you compare a Pact of the Tome (which I did, as it is the most comparable) the warlock ends up with more and more flexible cantrips and rituals, as well some more free at-wills through their invocations, and a better at-will attack. The wizard gets more spells prepared (though the other ways that a (particularly Pact of the Tome) warlock gets access to spells actually can balance that out too), and a way better spell list. Their subclasses are comparable in power so I didn't bother taking them into account. Other than the different yet equivalent in power in spell recovery mechanics, the differences amount to wizard = better spell selection; warlock = more at-will magic, better at-will attack, and better HD and armaments.

Which tells me that warlock could probably actually be balanced with wizard even if I nerf Agonizing Blast to how it was probably initially intended as only applying to one roll.

Of course, if the number of short rests you get in an adventuring day differs significantly from the design assumption of two, the balance becomes less equivalent, but that's true of many classes.

Cool analysis. I still say most of my themes are one invocation short! But that is not a big quibble. The big idea you present is that the warlock actually can use some magic while adventuring (more than twice a day!) and that was always my gut feeling about it. It is as you say distributed quite differently.

What I will say is this: without pact of the tome, the utility magic is harder to come by. I am into comprehend languages, detect magic, and so on. It is really a steep price to pay if you have to burn a 5th level slot for any of those functions. Of course maybe the warlock is just meant to do less of that; I can understand if that is the intent. This coupled with a lack of rituals without a feat is rough too.

In my current case, I am really thinking about adding a couple of 1st level slots via multi classing...
 

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What you can't do is take a short rest in the middle of a fight. In my observation full casters usually cast about three spells per fight (and paladins smite about three times).
 

Warpiglet

Adventurer
What you can't do is take a short rest in the middle of a fight. In my observation full casters usually cast about three spells per fight (and paladins smite about three times).

this sounds right to me. It really seems like one spell a fight if you are being somewhat careful, actually.

The whole thing is really a conundrum for the blade pact without going hexblade...I still love them, but the distribution of resources is lean in many situations even with the nice analysis above showing some comparable bang for the buck with wizards. There is no option for any lower level spells--you are dumping a lot of power into a 5th levels spell when perhaps a second or third level spell will do...
 

ClaytonCross

Kinder reader Inflection wanted
1. Warforged are also unable to wear armour. So that +3 full plate of acid resistance you just found is out the window. So benefit over human with heavy armour proficency = negligible.

Actually the warforged already has that covered and more:

You have advantage on saving throws against being poisoned, and you have resistance to poison damage.
You are immune to disease.
You don’t need to eat, drink, or breathe. <--suffocation immunity
You don’t need to sleep and don’t suffer the effects of exhaustion due to lack of rest, and magic can’t put you to sleep. <--exhaustion semi-immunity and Sleep immunity

All this trumps your acid resistance coming from the same source.... Its benefit over a human with heavy armor proficiency is extreme!!!

2. Warforged are still UA. If there armour class isn't nerfed before the final version, I will be very surprised. See: Githzeri.

That maybe true. In fact brought up that this was viable argument. I am not going to disagree, It could be too good. It could be they cut the proficiency in bonus in half but even that would be better than torle's starting at 17 but still increasing instead of starting at 17 and staying the same forever. Also, all eberaon is UA and if yoru against UA then your right not to use it. However, I would argue the Artificer has more than proven if an idea is cool enough no one cares if the source is UA. My GM dis allows all UA but the Artificer which he endorses. He has not rule on eberaon yes but I get a feeling he will eliminate basically everything but he warforged...why? Its all UA, but the warforged match well with the Artificers in the campaign AND I think the GM is just as eager to use them as the players. So in my opinion, putting it out as an idea option and letting the OP decide if it fits, it the GM is allowing this specific UA or not... etc... it for them to decide. I am just debating its merit as an option for consideration. I am in no way saying its the correct, best, and only choice. See the OP take a different direction is not unexpected.
 

So, your argument is "a warforged is better for everything" (AKA broken race is broken) and has nothing whatsoever to with celestial bladepact warlocks.
 
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Warpiglet

Adventurer
Well I finally let go. I became less rigid and opened up to one idea presented earlier. I am starting as a cleric of "mount celestia" but am doing celestial warlock therafter.

This will let me track evil, detect magic, do diplomacy and fight.

Stats changed a lot:

16 8 12 10 14 14

I took proficiency with horn and thaumaturgy for a blasting horn of angelic heraldry!

To mitigate the lower con, I am taking "tough" at level one which fits my scarred reformed former mercenary who has a limp with his 8 dex. Tormented and nearly broken by evil and now allied with a fallen LG angel tethered to the material plane hoping to get revenge on evil but also who wants to ascend to my celestia again!

The angel is not soft or comforting but broods in a cave plotting the destruction of evil!

This frees up an invocation for something fun like mask of many faces.

All the feedback was great and I am playing in 90 minutes!

***edit: will be war cleric wearing chain instead of scale
 
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ClaytonCross

Kinder reader Inflection wanted
So, your argument is "a warforged is better for everything" (AKA broken race is broken) and has nothing whatsoever to with celestial bladepact warlocks.

My argument was that the Warforge + 1 level of Fighter is a really strong option (admittedly maybe because Warforged is at least boarderline broken) for fixing AC issues with using Celestial Warlock Pact of the Blade instead of a feat so the OP would have a stronger option than Human Variant with Moderately Armored . Which you know because you offered the Tortle as an answer for the same solution. If you want to say our discussion is a tangent debate fine, but if your trying to say it is pointless and not relevant to the thread... you already know better.

How can you not disuse idea building and refinement on a thread with out comparing options like Tortle against each other? That is literally the point here.
 

ClaytonCross

Kinder reader Inflection wanted
Well I finally let go. I became less rigid and opened up to one idea presented earlier. I am starting as a cleric of "mount celestia" but am doing celestial warlock therafter.

This will let me track evil, detect magic, do diplomacy and fight.

Stats changed a lot:

16 8 12 10 14 14

I took proficiency with horn and thaumaturgy for a blasting horn of angelic heraldry!

To mitigate the lower con, I am taking "tough" at level one which fits my scarred reformed former mercenary who has a limp with his 8 dex. Tormented and nearly broken by evil and now allied with a fallen LG angel tethered to the material plane hoping to get revenge on evil but also who wants to ascend to my celestia again!

The angel is not soft or comforting but broods in a cave plotting the destruction of evil!

This frees up an invocation for something fun like mask of many faces.

All the feedback was great and I am playing in 90 minutes!

***edit: will be war cleric wearing chain instead of scale

Well I am glad you found your build and your happy with it. I am a little surprised you went cleric. Heavy armor will help your AC, and you get a second attack from level one. I guess Mercenaries need clerics too. I am curious about some things.

As the cleric of "mount celestia" is worshiping the angel already or Does the Angel worship a deity under the mountain as well?
If the Angel, what is the story hook for the Angle who is granting cleric abilities to grant warlock abilities to the same creature?
Usually, most Deities make Clerics (the Raven Queen, for example) and Warlocks are generally the result of very powerful underlings (Like the Hexblades the Raven Queen forged). So I am just curious if your throwing that out or if you have a work around, what is it?

If your a Cleric of a Deity and a warlock of its underling, How is your GM taking it? We have seen quite a few GMs ranting about Cleric/Warlock incompatibility due to "serving two masters". Generally if your the warlock first, the Deity is might be protecting you from a bad deal or curse after the fact, but being a Cleric first raises a question of if the Diety is cool with you serving its subordinate. Other argued that the Diety would revoke the cleric powers, however, I can see a "I am placing you under the command of X"

I also understand, since you are just posting this 90 mins before you play and you don't actually have any levels of Warlock yet, you might not have answer hammered out in detail. In that case they are just two points to consider to ensure you have answers and it makes since to you and your GM.

Not, judging your decisions just curious how you and your GM are playing it in light of previous debates.
 

Warpiglet

Adventurer
Well I am glad you found your build and your happy with it. I am a little surprised you went cleric. Heavy armor will help your AC, and you get a second attack from level one. I guess Mercenaries need clerics too. I am curious about some things.

As the cleric of "mount celestia" is worshiping the angel already or Does the Angel worship a deity under the mountain as well?
If the Angel, what is the story hook for the Angle who is granting cleric abilities to grant warlock abilities to the same creature?
Usually, most Deities make Clerics (the Raven Queen, for example) and Warlocks are generally the result of very powerful underlings (Like the Hexblades the Raven Queen forged). So I am just curious if your throwing that out or if you have a work around, what is it?

If your a Cleric of a Deity and a warlock of its underling, How is your GM taking it? We have seen quite a few GMs ranting about Cleric/Warlock incompatibility due to "serving two masters". Generally if your the warlock first, the Deity is might be protecting you from a bad deal or curse after the fact, but being a Cleric first raises a question of if the Diety is cool with you serving its subordinate. Other argued that the Diety would revoke the cleric powers, however, I can see a "I am placing you under the command of X"

I also understand, since you are just posting this 90 mins before you play and you don't actually have any levels of Warlock yet, you might not have answer hammered out in detail. In that case they are just two points to consider to ensure you have answers and it makes since to you and your GM.

Not, judging your decisions just curious how you and your GM are playing it in light of previous debates.

Yeah I don't feel judged. Happy to describe our story.

Mercenary veteran got less choosy about employers. He was probably LN in outlook. Tormented and broken by a betrayal, he was aided by a fallen angel tethered to the material plane. The angel was a planetar who had been too harsh in carrying out his mission. Until he learns mercy, he is not getting back to seven heavens. However, he does not fully get it and instead seeks redemption through martial and militant good in the world.

He takes on he mercenary who is not unlike him in some ways.

Neither know the goal of those in he seven heavens is to see them both redeemed.

The planetar agrees to help the mercenary learn white magic if he acts as herald and hand of the planetar in the world. Both want revenge on a mutual betrayer.

The planetar is hidden away in a cave with altars and other sacred mystical things where he mercenary is taught.

NOW to your actual question: the mercenary is not an ordained priest but has found that when he prays and uses the lore the planetar provides, he is able to harness white magic in the form of 1st level clerical spells. At 2nd level on, the power will be manifested in warlock levels.

He character wears the symbol of celestia (triangle with line through it). Both the planetar and character seek to do the will of my celestia and some of the divine beings there approve.

However, I see the character as serving a pantheon of lawful good beings and has no patron deity per se. Likewise, his patron does as well. Each is used to help redeem the other. Since the celestial patron can already grant 1st level cleric spells and eventually teach level 9 mystic Arcanum, neither the DM nor myself saw 1st level cleric as anything exceptional or outside of the planetar's power to teach or grant.

In play? It was fabulous. I mostly played a combat worthy cleric who did detect evil, magic and spared the dying.

The best was when I used a silver horn (I am proficient) to announce the coming of alkazid (the angel). I used thaumaturgy to make it boom and have the ground shake! It was a fun moment for the herald of an angry angel!

In short, not too invested in the 1st level of cleric being anything other than part of the celestial pact. There is no jealous God as we see it as well within a patron's abilty to grant as well.

It is allowing me to play a very helpful party member who eventually (with eldritch smite) will be able to unleash some
Powerful angelic rage.

This was the most parsimonious and direct route to what I wanted. I can detect evil and magic and comprehend languages (all by level two) and eventually cast tongues as a high level warlock. If anyone doubts his authenticity, he can cast thaumaturgy and blast with a silver horn.

Other routes were less direct but would have worked. Could have done clerical magic initiate for example. Then would still have needed a feat for armor. The route I took allows for me to take tough to compensate for a lower con and a later ASI in CHR since I had to invest so much in wisdom to go this route. Thought about life cleric, but planetary are "weapons of the gods" so war domain seemed a better fit.
 
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Warpiglet

Adventurer
And as an aside:

We play warlock spells and abilities as learned and taught with patron as guide and tutor (I.e. Displeasing the patron MIGHT mean they don't teach you more levels but you keep your gained powers as your own after they are learned if that matters).
 
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