Improvisation vs "code-breaking" in D&D

Zak S

Guest
Also, this whole discussion of tone is the result of goal-post moving:

"But GNS tho..."
"People shouldn't talk about GNS because it's a flawed theory and has cause lots of problems"
"Flawed in your opinion"
"Nope, flawed objectively, here's evidence"
"Ok, sure, but, like it's had good effects"
"In reality, the bad effects are numerous, here's a list of some"
"Ok, but parts were good..."
"None of these 'good parts' are specific to GNS. Pretty much all RPG theories have these same "good parts"."
"Ok, sure, but, like, your tone..."
"Being dissuaded by tone is irrational..."
"Ok, sure but everyone's irrational when talking games online..."

Like, you want to believe that, ok. But this whole discussion comes at the tail end of me saying GNS has been an engine for organizing and to some degree weaponizing parts of the online RPG community's gullibility and I don't see anything in this thread which suggests otherwise.
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
The first part is fallacious (proved with evidence), the second part is redundant (proved, with evidence).

Therefore the theory is useless. The only new thing it does fails.

Do you think about what you post before you post it?

I have a theory. My theory is that dogs can fly to the moon, use rocks rich in iron to grow to 30 feet tall, are mammals, have four legs and breathe in order to live.

Now according to you, because two of those things are provably false, dogs are not mammals, they don't have four legs and don't need to breathe.

It just doesn't work that way. That you have found some flaws in the theory doesn't mean that the rest of the theory is incorrect. If you make the claim that the whole thing is false, you have to prove each and every little part of it false with real evidence and reasoning, not wild claims.
 

Zak S

Guest
I have a theory. My theory is that dogs can fly to the moon, use rocks rich in iron to grow to 30 feet tall, are mammals, have four legs and breathe in order to live.

Now according to you, because two of those things are provably false, dogs are not mammals, they don't have four legs and don't need to breathe.

It just doesn't work that way. That you have found some flaws in the theory doesn't mean that the rest of the theory is incorrect.

Strawman.

I said GNS was worthless, as is your theory.

Your theory proposes new things and old things. The new things are false and the old things were true but already known. Nobody needs your "theory of dogs". The only parts that were worth anything are old and existed before your theory--just like GNS.

An the fact is since _every crackpot theory in the world contains some random true observation_ basically what you're saying is there's no such thing as a theory so stupid we shouldn't discuss it. Like, again, (I have to repeat this because you didn't catch it the first time) your argument would defend phrenology, eugenics, the flat earth theory, the steady state theory, spontaneous generation, Lamarckianism and pretty much every other piece of crackpottery in the world.

So, no, you're totally wrong.
 
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I have a theory. My theory is that dogs can fly to the moon, use rocks rich in iron to grow to 30 feet tall, are mammals, have four legs and breathe in order to live.

I saw 30-foot dog fly to the moon yesterday. So that's now proven with evidence. Anyone saying otherwise is clearly irrational.
 

Zak S

Guest
I saw 30-foot dog fly to the moon yesterday. So that's now proven with evidence. Anyone saying otherwise is clearly irrational.

Typing the words isn't evidence obviously--but you are allowed to claim you have it. If someone wanted to contest that you then what they do is ask for footage with time stamps, etc.

If you'd like to contest (for example) my screenshot of Ron Edwards saying stuff that makes no sense, then go ahead.

So far nobody's contested any of the evidence, so this little bit of snark isn't really a relevant point.
 

My screenshot of Ron Edwards saying stuff that makes no sense to me but which I've yet to provide any evidence to prove is wrong demonstrates nothing.

So far people have contested my empty claims, but I've simply talked over them while repeating my claims or making new and even sillier ones, again without providing any evidence whatsoever.

FTFY.
 

innerdude

Legend
The better analogy here would be the theories of psychology posited by Freud.

No serious psychologist gives any real credence to the totality of Freud's theories. But it doesn't change the fact that some of his basic constructs (id, ego, superego, etc.) became mileposts, or reference markers, for explorations into further research into human psychology.

Though the theories themselves are largely considered untrue, they provided a foundation, or baseline set of semantics on which to base further postulations. And no one apologizes for having participated in developing or evolving the theories, or having at one time believed them, or feels that somehow they've been a detriment to human progress, or that anyone who ever said anything positive about Freudian psychology EVER in the history of mankind should somehow be ashamed of themselves.

That's basically my approach GNS. I agree that the totality of GNS as a whole is at best a tenuous attempt at stringing together half-baked thoughts and self-referential definitions into some vaguely coherent theory. At its worst it self-righteously asserts its own veracity and presents its tenets as some grand theory from which we must all partake or forever be doomed to participate in bandwrongfun gaming. It's a mess, and I pretty much disagree with nearly all of its "top level" claims. In a lot of ways, it feels like Edwards is somehow trying to come to some rational grip with the fact that White Wolf games were wildly popular at the time, and he hated them, and the theory was somehow supposed to support and justify his own personal biases.......

That said, it has a few things I find interesting.

The Forge's "simulationist" theory is hmmm, how to say it without sounding overly negative, okay never mind, it's total crap. Edwards is clearly trying to build on some previous theories and differentiate it from the other two GNS "pillars," but it mostly just comes across as half-baked. It has definite undertones of, "Well, I don't really know how this works, it's something I've not experienced myself, but I can imagine it working this way because these reasons." His idea behind "High Concept Sim" is about the only thing that feels even remotely useful, but even then I think it's much more related to "story" approaches to gaming than "simulation," but Edwards can't possibly allow any hint of this "simulation garbage" to seep into his precious "narrativism."

It's my impression that much of the theory around "gamist" approaches are correct in principle, but basically miss the point entirely as applied to what makes a working, mainstream RPG, namely that Ron seems to think that "gamism" solely in and of itself is a totally valid approach to playing RPGs.....and I vehemently disagree with that assertion. Which is also why I disagree with [MENTION=3192]howandwhy99[/MENTION]'s approach to RPGs as well; RPGs have a "game" component, but if they don't have something else they're not a true RPG.

I think the general concept of "narrativist" theory/Story Now/player authorship is generally the strongest component---probably because it's the one they were trying to fix the hardest---but I have absolutely no desire to play any of the "narrativist" games the theorizing actually produced (Life With Master, Dogs in the Vineyard, etc.). I can see wanting to incorporate certain small "narrativist" components into mainstream RPGs.....but a wholesale "narrativist" game has almost zero resemblance to the kinds of traditional RPGs I enjoy. What does that mean exactly? I'm not sure.

So, in summary*: as a whole, GNS's broad-based claims are simply untrue. But I occasionally see bits and pieces and individual concepts here and there that can be useful under very specific applications, or might form an interesting basis for specific, situational mechanics in a traditional RPG format. And despite the theory's categorical untruths, it does provide a milepost, or marker for future exploration.

*Minor addendum--Other than the "White Wolf players are brain damaged" comment, I'm not familiar with any other controversy caused by The Forge and its adherents. There's some implication from Zak that Evil Hat was somehow responsible for creating some negativity in the industry. Can someone enlighten me?
 

Zak S

Guest

You're completely wrong again:

Someone directly questioned whether Ron ever claimed no 2 creative agendas could be fulfilled at once...


ronswrong.jpg



...the screenshot features him saying exactly that thing....





ron_edwards_is_wrong.jpg



So, Chaochou, you should apologize to everyone reading for your terrible mistake. And [MENTION=336]D'karr[/MENTION] should apologize for supporting it.
 
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Zak S

Guest
But it doesn't change the fact that some of his basic constructs (id, ego, superego, etc.) became mileposts, or reference markers, for explorations into further research into human psychology.
GNS has no such markers. Everything that might count as a "marker" was already in the (dumb) Threefold Model. The ONLY thing you could say about GNS was that somewhere along the line someone decided "narrativism" was a thing--but that's not a Freud amount of progress. That tiny upside must be weighed against the Everest of downside the theories have had.

Also, when Freud developed his theories--there were no better ones. GNS was developed long after much smarter people had made and done much smarter things.

GNS is like if people decided to go full Freudian tomorrow. What would that mean? That would mean those were not smart people and they do not care about reason or evidence or facts.

There's some implication from Zak that Evil Hat was somehow responsible for creating some negativity in the industry. Can someone enlighten me?
Absolutely, but it's probably off-topic and dramatic so I'll message you and anyone else interested.
 
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