D&D 5E Could Paizo go 5e?

If it's compatible with 5e, then nobody will buy it - they'll just use the 5e books they already own. That means that Pathfinder as a game is done.

Click to expand...

Obviously not.

1. Making a 5e-based PF system require the 5e-based PF core book would be absolutely trivial, if that's what Paizo wants. I'm amazed I even have to say this (but in case I did: new sub-classes or classes, new spells, bit of new equipment, few new feats, i.e., do your job, and you have a book that subsequent products can reference, thus requiring players to buy the core book).

2. A 5e PF will have to have plenty of dissimilarities, just to fill out a PF-sized core rulebook. WotC trimmed quite a bit out of the PHB for the SRD, so they'll have to be different from official 5e, by definition.

3. We're talking about one book out of a whole line anyway. Meanwhile, Paizo could start selling 5e-based (insert Paizo marketing euphemism for PHB2, MM2, MM3, splatbook galore, etc., here.) to WotC's 5e customers, as well as their established Pathfinder customer base.

4. If Paizo wants to compete with the PHB/DMG specifically, they can do so. If they want to piggy-back onto 5e's core books, they can do that, too. The choice is theirs. If they want to compete, they can release in a different format (all core in one book, like now), with different rules (to replace all the stuff WotC held back from the SRD), different art, in a different layout, at a different price point. And they can do so whenever they like, e.g., when WotC bails on 5e.

And then, when WotC move on to 6e and decide that that edition will be closed, Paizo will be stuck - the Pathfinder game will be gone and difficult to bring back, but they can't immediately use 6e, so they're in trouble.

Click to expand...

Paizo won't be stuck because they'll still have PF2(5e).

ETA: you can bet Paizo is still discussing this.

@Morlock it sounds to me like you are just thoroughly convinced that there is no possible downside to Paizo making a PF2 from the 5e rules. You're not interested in knowing whether it has potential problems--the only possible thing we can give you, since this is a huge hypothetical--so the thread title is a bit spurious. You're not really asking a question at all. You're presenting an argument. It's not the interrogative, "Could Paizo go 5e?" and rather a declaration, "Paizo Could go 5e."

Intentionally shooting for hard compatibility with 5e, yet still meeting your points 1 and 2 there, seems pretty difficult. Unless, as @delericho put it, they "bring 5e enhancements into a new PF" rather than "build a new PF on the basis of 5e."

And "they'll still have PF2(5e)" would be precisely where Paizo was back when 4e launched, which was a problem for them at the time. It WOULD be another case of "getting left behind." Their fanbase would get split, yet again. They'd be facing the same problems as D&D does, whenever a new edition is launched--they built for compatibility with a thing that isn't in vogue anymore.

If the existence of 5e is a danger such that they should rework their stuff into a new PF2, then 6e should be precisely the same danger. And if 5e is having no meaningful negative effect on their sales, they have no reason to make 5e compatibility a goal with any prospective PF2--better to keep the fans you have than to risk it on fans you don't. Either way, shooting for deep/fundamental compatibility seems unwise...yet shooting for shallow compatibility, e.g. lifting all the useful ideas and trashing the rest, is exactly what Delericho was talking about.

@Morlock it sounds to me like you are just thoroughly convinced that there is no possible downside to Paizo making a PF2 from the 5e rules.

Click to expand...

Sounds like projection. I'm not convinced at all. I just haven't heard any yet. Obviously, some reasons could exist that we aren't privy to, and can only speculate about.

Intentionally shooting for hard compatibility with 5e

Click to expand...

Nobody can have hard compatibility with 5e, WotC held back too much content for that.

And "they'll still have PF2(5e)" would be precisely where Paizo was back when 4e launched

Click to expand...

No, it wouldn't.

Morlock said:

Sounds like projection. I'm not convinced at all. I just haven't heard any yet.

Click to expand...

You have. You just chose to disregard them.

Obviously, some reasons could exist that we aren't privy to, and can only speculate about.

Click to expand...

We are privy to them. Paizo have given their reasons.

Could they change their minds? Of course. Will they change their minds? Don't count on it.

You have. You just chose to debunk them.

Click to expand...

FIFY.

Morlock said:

FIFY.

Click to expand...

No you didn't. And please don't put words in my mouth.

Lisa Stevens, when she was working for WotC, did the market research when WotC wanted to switch from 2e to 3e. It became obvious that the biggest competitors of D&D were previous editions of D&D, not other RPGs. One reason why PF got so much traction was that a lot of people were happy with 3.5. There are many people who still play 3.5. Change for change would mean PF risking losing many fans.

When PF 2e comes along, and it will at some point, it will need to be backward compatible with PF 1e or they risk losing many costumers. Althought when they do the switch, 5e will be older, more used. Maybe PF 2e will attract players who want something else.

delericho said:

Apparently not - Paizo have indicated that their sales haven't been significantly affected by 5e. Which means that either people have been buying both games or 5e has brought in a whole load of new (or returning) people to the market. (Or, most likely, a bit of both.)

Click to expand...

Pathfinder and 5E are different enough games, while both still feeling like D&D, that I don't think there is a ton of crossover and there will be less and less as time goes on. I know some people that love the detailed, granular system of PF, they precise tactical battles and the highly strategic build subsystem. I know people that infinitely prefer the streamlined experience of 5E. Many people I know will play either depending on what is being run (beggars can't be choosers, after all) but I don't know very many at all that like both equally or have no preference. Anecdotal, I know. The thing is, there is nothing saying that people that prefer PF over 5E and vice versa need to be at odds. Having two strong flavors of D&D that cater to different tastes is a good thing. It grows the hobby by providing robust play at cons and offering different things to different people as they enter the hobby.

delericho said:

Apparently not - Paizo have indicated that their sales haven't been significantly affected by 5e. Which means that either people have been buying both games or 5e has brought in a whole load of new (or returning) people to the market. (Or, most likely, a bit of both.)

Click to expand...

It certainly isn't as if supporting 5e requires so much money that I can't also get PF stuff.

Mouseferatu said:

Paizo already has a loyal fanbase, and they've pretty much said that they'll never again put themselves in a position where their own products depend on another company. I don't see it ever, ever happening. At most, I can see them possibly doing a small line of 5E material or conversions alongside Pathfinder, but going full-on (or even mostly, or even a significant minority) 5E? I think not much earlier than the heat death of the universe.

Click to expand...

That's actually part of why I think it's a possibility - 5e's rules are OGL, now and forever. Paizo could put out a 5e-compatible / 5e-based PF and even when WotC went to 6e or 7e, they could keep the 5e-compatible products.

The 5e SRD basically makes a 5e PF possible without depending on any future largess from WotC.

Not that they gotta, of course - if their fans are making them enough dough and they're still growing, there might not be much incentive for them to adopt 5e.