D&D 5E New Players same level as Current Players?

WHat level should newbies start at?

  • Same level as the current players, b/c that's fair!

    Votes: 88 83.0%
  • Start'em at 1st, the current players had to start there!

    Votes: 12 11.3%
  • Start them at first, but give them XP bonus to catch up!

    Votes: 6 5.7%

  • Poll closed .

77IM

Explorer!!!
Supporter
Why start anyone at 1st level, ever? Why not start the whole party at level 15, or level 8, or level 20, or whatever? Why have levels and advancement at all -- why not start every character at level 11 and just keep them there forever?

The answer to those questions should strongly inform your decision of what level to start new PCs. For example, if you start the party at level 1 with the intention of advancing to level 20 because "advancing from 1 to 20 is fun," then you should start new PCs at level 1 so that they can experience that fun too. Alternately, if you start the party at level 1 with the intention of advancing to level 20 because "it's fun to face a variety of challenges," then start new PCs at the same level as the rest of the group so that they are well-matched to the challenges they will be facing. If you start the party at level 1 with the intention of advancing to level 20 because "that's the kind of story we want to tell," then the starting level of new PCs should be based on the kind of story you want to tell about those new PCs -- the new member of the group might even be a higher level than the rest (in such stories, often the relative power levels of the main characters converge over time -- so a lower-starting PC might get XP quickly, while a higher-starting PC gets XP slowly).
 

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Arial Black

Adventurer
DM: Hey guys, I've just got my copy of Hellfire Keep, an awesome scenario for 15th level PCs. We're playing it next week.

Players: So you want us to create some 15th levels PCs to play through it?

DM: Certainly not! That would be cheating! You must start out at 1st just like everyone else!

Players: .....er.....!

When we are talking about experienced players who have played their PC from 1st to 15th but the PC then dies, the idea that his replacement PC must start at 1st or 3rd while joining the others in their 15th level adventure is astonishing. I find the accusation that such a player is simply not competent to play a 15th level PC unless he played this very PC from level 1 insulting.
 

S

Sunseeker

Guest
Why start anyone at 1st level, ever? Why not start the whole party at level 15, or level 8, or level 20, or whatever? Why have levels and advancement at all -- why not start every character at level 11 and just keep them there forever?

The answer to those questions should strongly inform your decision of what level to start new PCs. For example, if you start the party at level 1 with the intention of advancing to level 20 because "advancing from 1 to 20 is fun," then you should start new PCs at level 1 so that they can experience that fun too. Alternately, if you start the party at level 1 with the intention of advancing to level 20 because "it's fun to face a variety of challenges," then start new PCs at the same level as the rest of the group so that they are well-matched to the challenges they will be facing. If you start the party at level 1 with the intention of advancing to level 20 because "that's the kind of story we want to tell," then the starting level of new PCs should be based on the kind of story you want to tell about those new PCs -- the new member of the group might even be a higher level than the rest (in such stories, often the relative power levels of the main characters converge over time -- so a lower-starting PC might get XP quickly, while a higher-starting PC gets XP slowly).

Personally, I'd be very happy if there was a variant advancement rule where people could gain XP and put it towards character advancement in the form of feats, perks or other features, without the need for "levels". I'd also appreciate such a system keeping the HP low.
 

MostlyDm

Explorer
As much as 5e is already kind of 3.5's e6 variant stretched over 20 levels (due to bounded accuracy)... Yeah. Some kind of e6 or e8 style variant for 5e could still be fun to keep HP inflation down.
 

Nytmare

David Jose
When we are talking about experienced players who have played their PC from 1st to 15th but the PC then dies, the idea that his replacement PC must start at 1st or 3rd while joining the others in their 15th level adventure is astonishing. I find the accusation that such a player is simply not competent to play a 15th level PC unless he played this very PC from level 1 insulting.

It's been a while since I read the majority of the posts in this thread, but I'm fairly certain that nobody made that accusation, or said that they're running a game like that.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
In this kind of case, level being a pacing mechanic is painfully clear and it is weird to even think about it as a reward. When that happens, having PCs at different levels would feel like a penalty or at least arbitrary.
Experience points are the reward a character gets for what it does; and they (one hopes) will eventually lead to an increase in level.

The risk - and I've had this debate before in here - with levelling everyone up arbitrarily at the same time is that you may well end up rewarding characters (and it *is* a reward, you can't frame it any other way) for doing nothing.

Some players are quite happy to keep their characters in the background and let others take the risks. They survive, while the risk-takers die. But if nobody took the risks nothing would get done. How fair is it that the passengers get the same rewards as the drivers?

Yes, that's right: it isn't.
shidaku said:
A 5-man party with a level 1 fighter has a CR/APL of 12.2, which is 3 Helmed Horrors. Each one will have a base 60% chance to hit on a fighter with an AC of 18. They get two attacks per round. The fighter has at best, 15 HP, assuming max con, no feats. I beg the question: how does he meaningfully contribute when the monsters are more likely to hit him than he is to hit them?
You're falling into the optimizer's trap of equating meaningful contribution with combat proficiency. It's a 3-pillar game these days, right? A low-level character of any class can still explore, still map, still talk, still think, still keep watch, still track treasury, still help with planning, etc., etc.

That said, I think in this thread only [MENTION=1210]the Jester[/MENTION] is advocating a true ES@1, which after about 4th level is quite different than starting a level or two below the party average.

Lan-"there's more to this game than combat"-efan
 

the Jester

Legend
A 5-man party with a level 1 fighter has a CR/APL of 12.2, which is 3 Helmed Horrors. Each one will have a base 60% chance to hit on a fighter with an AC of 18. They get two attacks per round. The fighter has at best, 15 HP, assuming max con, no feats. I beg the question: how does he meaningfully contribute when the monsters are more likely to hit him than he is to hit them?

First, if the 1st level pc is missing a bunch or doing significantly less damage than the high-level guys, why would the helmed horrors spend their attacks on him instead of a greater threat? But even if they do so, sometimes taking damage and soaking up a hit or two for the team is the way a pc contributes. Don't forget that that 1st level pc may well have a better chance to hit than the numbers suggest. Advantage, bless, etc are all things that will help him out a bit. And I'll reiterate that any party with a cleric and mixed level pcs ought to look at how awesome aid is for that kind of situation.

But looked at through a slightly broader lens, that pc can contribute in any number of ways other than just attacking. He can get in there and dodge, hoping to soak attacks that way. He can use the Help action to aid another pc. He can try to achieve a strategic goal, if the encounter has one ("we can't leave until we destroy the gadget/pull the lever/open the gates/whatever"). Hell, he can even try negotiation if he wants... but if he sticks to just "hit it with my weapon", he can still contribute in most cases.

But let's step back and look at it through a slightly broader yet lens. Your question assumes that every encounter is going to be a balanced-for-the-party kind of encounter. In a sandbox- which, to be clear, is the perfect kind of game for ES@1, and it might work far less well in a more story-oriented game- this isn't the case. Those helmed horrors are only in places where they make sense to be, not anywhere the party happens to go. If the area has 1d4 griffons as the most common random encounter in the mountains, when that encounter comes up, it's 1d4 griffons whether it's a lone 1st level pc or a party of ten 20th level characters. And a key element of sandbox play is the ability of the pcs to make judgement calls about what danger/reward level they want to face, at least to a limited extent.

In other words, if the party is full of low-level pcs, they are perfectly able to pursue some lower-level challenges for a bit while the lower-level guys catch up a bit.

And I'm going to add one final level of 'step back and broader'. In my game, as is the case in many sandbox campaigns, the players sometimes end up with multiple characters. They can thus reconfigure their party between adventures; there's no reason that the new 1st level pc has to be with the highest level pcs out there; in fact, there has been one time when a player made a secondary character both because he wanted to try out a fighter because he didn't want to be the sole high (6th IIRC) level pc in a party that was otherwise 1st and 2nd level.

So I guess the answer to your question is- In the specific example you cite, the pc can still contribute through dealing damage (and not being the likely target of attacks), the Help action, by attracting attacks while Dodging, and possibly in other ways; but that's not a super likely encounter for a 1st level pc to face.
 

Tectuktitlay

Explorer
Experience points are the reward a character gets for what it does; and they (one hopes) will eventually lead to an increase in level.

The risk - and I've had this debate before in here - with levelling everyone up arbitrarily at the same time is that you may well end up rewarding characters (and it *is* a reward, you can't frame it any other way) for doing nothing.

Actually, yes. I most assuredly can frame it such that levels are not, in fact, rewards. When you go the route of ignoring XP rewards, and go for alternative rewards, levels quite explicitly become nothing more or less than a metric of the relative power level of the PCs compared to the rest of the campaign world. You are removing rewarding players with XP from the equation entirely, hence you are by definition removing leveling up as a reward entirely. Levels become a metric, not a reward; there's a significant difference.

Instead rewards are, in my campaigns at least (as I posted previously in the thread), much more tangible in terms of their impact and immersion within the game world itself.

You don't get to have a castle in the game world unless you earn it.
You don't get titles unless you earn them.
You don't get to command an army.
You won't have as many magic items (yes, you'll get a baseline of wealth with which you can purchase items, but that's it).
You won't have as many spells in your spellbook, if you are a wizard.
You won't have any favors with powerful NPCs.
You won't have a license to kill (in the literal sense) in this country.

But your level? Your raw mechanical baseline? Yeah, you're all on even footing there, because it's been entirely removed from the reward structure. Rather than worrying about what can often be a complicated balancing act of rewarding XP for killing things in combat versus fair rewards for characters who simply don't engage in nearly as much combat, you run under the baseline assumption that everyone in the campaign is engaging in activities they are gaining experience from, maturing because of.

You don't worry about rewarding XP for good diplomacy, instead someone gets a favor, a title, a trusted contact in some organization.
You don't worry about rewarding XP for successfully breaking into an evil wizard's tower without getting caught, you actually gain a tangible, physical reward no one else in the party gets, because they didn't join you in taking the risk.
You don't worry about rewarding XP in combat being by far the most common time to gain XP. Each combat will have its own rewards, or sometimes (and I know this is likely to make some shudder), a given fight will have no rewards at all. Engaging the random 1d4 griffons that happen to commonly be in the area not only didn't give you any rewards for killing animals that are part of the natural order, if you persist in such activities too much you might upset the natural order. The people that just killed a pack of alpha predators, rather than just scaring them off, likely did more damage than they might think to the local ecology. The local druid might not be too happy about that.

So yeah. Actually I can and do remove XP, and leveling, from the reward structure entirely. Levels are a yardstick measuring where the campaign currently is, and the PCs, even new PCs, are movers and shakers within the campaign world at that level.

This doesn't mean I don't understand the other approaches, and I am fine playing in games that use them. But ES@1 in particular is running under a particularly bizarre assumption: That only adventuring in an adventuring party can truly help you climb past 1st level. Because a 10th level party? Running around and adventuring? You really think yet another 1st level character is going to catch their eye at all? Or will they instead more often than not be seen as a risk, a liability. By people within the game world, that is. If it is clear that Tim the Enchanter, whose cave we just stumbled upon, is barely above an apprentice in power, that group of hardened adventurers isn't bloody well likely to accept his company, no matter how pleasant it might be. Because with the kinds of experienced villains that party fights regularly, Tim will easily be cut down with a single swipe of a sword by even the lowliest of the bodyguards of the BBEG.

That druid you just stumbled upon, who has been guarding these lands for decades and has been given leave by the local spirits to go deal with a grave threat, is only 1st level because this is her first outing with your adventuring group.

The grizzled vet of three wars, a sergeant at arms who has trained countless whelps, seen more young soldiers die in campaigns than he can count, is 1st level because he hasn't adventured with your party.

Having every new PC come in as a novice, just starting out in the world for the first time, effectively eliminates a huge number of potential backgrounds for why someone would be joining your high-level group of adventurers. Drizzt is joining up with your party of 11th level characters on a dire mission to save the North? Well, he's just a 1st level ranger, fresh from Menzoberranzan. Raistlin is joining your party, having already earned his red robes, and the title Wizard of High Sorcery? He's 1st level, even though the rest of the group is 15th level and in the midst of a massive campaign against armies of evil dragonriders...because.

It just ends up causing a pretty significant disconnect, because young, inexperienced characters wouldn't likely be WELCOMED into a seasoned party. Not unless they are extraordinary, and even those would be the exception that prove the rule. One? Maybe two such characters coming in at so low a level in a mid-to-high level campaign? Sure, ok, perhaps. But all of them? Not without eliminating an enormous percentage of potential back stories, or making those backstories not mesh with the relative power level of the character itself. Sure, your druid has been protecting these lands for decades, but she only knows a handful of the weakest of spells in a druid's repertoire, deal with it. That...is a bit too draconian, too heavy-handed a rule to impose, imho.
 
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Nytmare

David Jose
Actually, yes. I most assuredly can frame it such that levels are not, in fact, rewards. When you go the route of ignoring XP rewards, and go for alternative rewards, levels quite explicitly become nothing more or less than a metric of the relative power level of the PCs compared to the rest of the campaign world. You are removing rewarding players with XP from the equation entirely, hence you are by definition removing leveling up as a reward entirely. Levels become a metric, not a reward; there's a significant difference.

I read what he said not as "you are incapable of coming up with a situation where XP is NOT a reward" but instead as "sometimes people get rewarded for doing nothing, and there's no other way to look at it."

I definitely disagree with the first statement, but the second is something I've seen on more than one occasion in both "XP as reward" and "leveling when appropriate" games.
 

Nytmare

David Jose
In addition to that, I'd say that the following situations:

* Because a 10th level party? Running around and adventuring? You really think yet another 1st level character is going to catch their eye at all? Or will they instead more often than not be seen as a risk, a liability.

* By people within the game world, that is. If it is clear that Tim the Enchanter, whose cave we just stumbled upon, is barely above an apprentice in power, that group of hardened adventurers isn't bloody well likely to accept his company, no matter how pleasant it might be. Because with the kinds of experienced villains that party fights regularly, Tim will easily be cut down with a single swipe of a sword by even the lowliest of the bodyguards of the BBEG.

are not situations that a "new characters at first level" world would usually frame. Not every D&D group introduces new characters as new hires or employees, and not every group will weigh a characters' worth by how well they stand up in a fight.

Furthermore:

* That druid you just stumbled upon, who has been guarding these lands for decades and has been given leave by the local spirits to go deal with a grave threat, is only 1st level because this is her first outing with your adventuring group.

* The grizzled vet of three wars, a sergeant at arms who has trained countless whelps, seen more young soldiers die in campaigns than he can count, is 1st level because he hasn't adventured with your party.

* Drizzt is joining up with your party of 11th level characters on a dire mission to save the North? Well, he's just a 1st level ranger, fresh from Menzoberranzan.

* Raistlin is joining your party, having already earned his red robes, and the title Wizard of High Sorcery? He's 1st level, even though the rest of the group is 15th level and in the midst of a massive campaign against armies of evil dragonriders...because.

are probably not characters (or maybe even situations) that would be introduced in a game where fresh PCs start out at level one.
 

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