Star Wars Geekdom 101 -Explaining The Empire

Olgar Shiverstone · Sep 9, 2018

Zardnaar said:
Later on the US for example made planes with better performance+ armor and it turned into a turkey shoot. For the same reason Japan struggled to make high performance fighters and high altitude interceptors. Its another reason Japan basically cloned the ME 262 off German blueprints delivered via subs.

Materiel differences are hardly the whole story.

IJN forces were well trained, well equipped, but logistically fragile -- Yamamoto knew when the war started that if the US could not be brought to the negotiating table quickly the Japanese would be ground down despite initial significant superiority in equipment and trained and experienced pilots.

While the introduction of fighters like the Hellcat and Corsair were materially superior to their Japanese equivalents when they were introduced, by the time of their introduction it almost did not matter -- the Japanese training pipeline could not replace the loss of experienced pilots from Coral Sea, Midway, and the Guadalcanal campaigns. By the time of the Central Pacific drives and the Philippine campaign, the Japanese faced an opponent with more equipment, superior equipment, and the IJN had fewer inexperienced pilots to crew what equipment they had. The Marianas Turkey Shoot would have been a thing even had the US still been flying Wildcats, if perhaps slightly less lopsided.

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One can argue the Empire's preference in fighters for quantity over quality is a reasonable choice; it doesn't allow development of highly superior pilots as few of them live long enough, but if you can bury your opponent in materiel it does not matter much (cf: Russia vs Germany, Eastern Front).

Zardnaar · Sep 9, 2018

Olgar Shiverstone said:
Materiel differences are hardly the whole story.

IJN forces were well trained, well equipped, but logistically fragile -- Yamamoto knew when the war started that if the US could not be brought to the negotiating table quickly the Japanese would be ground down despite initial significant superiority in equipment and trained and experienced pilots.

While the introduction of fighters like the Hellcat and Corsair were materially superior to their Japanese equivalents when they were introduced, by the time of their introduction it almost did not matter -- the Japanese training pipeline could not replace the loss of experienced pilots from Coral Sea, Midway, and the Guadalcanal campaigns. By the time of the Central Pacific drives and the Philippine campaign, the Japanese faced an opponent with more equipment, superior equipment, and the IJN had fewer inexperienced pilots to crew what equipment they had. The Marianas Turkey Shoot would have been a thing even had the US still been flying Wildcats, if perhaps slightly less lopsided.

//

One can argue the Empire's preference in fighters for quantity over quality is a reasonable choice; it doesn't allow development of highly superior pilots as few of them live long enough, but if you can bury your opponent in materiel it does not matter much (cf: Russia vs Germany, Eastern Front).

If Japan had designed a better fighter they probably would have had less pilot issues. They built the Zero because they could not really design a better fighter until later in the war and they still struggled with engines. There is stories of Zeros running out of ammunition and not being able to destroy a wild cat.

The Empire could churn out the pilots and they had their elite squadrons as well. They were also using a 20 year old design, it would be like using the MiG 15 vs Vietnam era jets.

Derren · Sep 9, 2018

Zardnaar said:
If Japan had designed a better fighter they probably would have had less pilot issues. They built the Zero because they could not really design a better fighter until later in the war and they still struggled with engines. There is stories of Zeros running out of ammunition and not being able to destroy a wild cat.

The Empire could churn out the pilots and they had their elite squadrons as well. They were also using a 20 year old design, it would be like using the MiG 15 vs Vietnam era jets.

That happens when you don't hit. 2x20mm isn't really undergunned and in line with what most other planes of that time carried.

Talking logistics and economy in Star Wars is totally useless as they only follow the demand of the plot with no internal logic. Think about it, we are talking about entire planets. No matter if it is TIEs or X-Wing, a industrialized planets could build hundreds of either of them in a few months in a war economy.

Eltab · Sep 9, 2018

Zardnaar said:
If Japan had designed a better fighter they probably would have had less pilot issues.

Not so. The Battle of Midway wiped out something like half Japan's highly-trained-and-experienced pilot cadre in one day, by blowing up the aircraft carriers (with airplanes and pilots aboard). Japan did not have a robust system to rescue downed pilots, and no backup plans for the battle in case things went badly. The Zero's design was not a part of that disaster.

A little-known sidelight to that battle (because folks back then were able and determined to keep secrets secret) was that the US got ahold of a nearly-intact Zero after the battle, figured out its design parameters, and designed the next generation of their own fighters to be better than that. The Hellcat was specifically intended to be a Zero-killer.

Eltab · Sep 9, 2018

Derren said:
(W)e are talking about entire planets. No matter if it is TIEs or X-Wing, a industrialized planets could build hundreds of either of them in a few months in a war economy.

This might be a good time to look up the Traveller supplements High Guard and Trillion Credit Squadron, which propose rules for building fleets of starships. It would give us a framework to work around.

You noted correctly that the Star Wars movies have no such framework in place.

Star Wars Geekdom 101 -Explaining The Empire

Olgar Shiverstone

Legend

Zardnaar

Legend

Derren

Hero

Eltab

Lord of the Hidden Layer

Eltab

Lord of the Hidden Layer

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