Cantrip Auto-Scaling - A 5e Critique

FrogReaver said:

Because an ability that costs a resource should do more than an ability that doesn’t cost a resource.

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Mouseferatu said:

I'd just like to point out something else.

Cantrips are a limited resource. In some ways, even more so than spells. They're just limited on a different scale, and the choices are made at a different time.

Wizards gain two new spells automatically every level, and can potentially gain a lot more than that. Clerics and druids have access to entire spell lists. Yes, the spells they can cast on a given day are limited, but their options in terms of access are exceedingly broad, and can be changed on a daily basis.

Cantrips? You get a small handful of them, ever. You cannot pick up new ones to add to your spellbook. You cannot, by the rules, ever swap the out. You pick your tiny selection, maybe get a couple of new ones over the course of many levels, and that's it. You're done, you're locked in, and you can never swap them out or expand your options.

It's a different sort of limit, but it's still a limited resource.

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Paul Farquhar said:

But as I have pointed out, this is simply not the case, has never been intended to be the case, otherwise Fighter extra attack and Rogue sneak attack would need to be limited use.

Sorcerers can change their 1st level spell slots for higher level slots, warlock slots scale automatically, and other casters are not supposed to be using 1st level slots for direct damage, they have lots of other stuff they can do with them, and they are really poor compared to direct damage classes.

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doctorbadwolf said:

[MENTION=6795602]FrogReaver[/MENTION] At this point, I think any further discussion is a waste of time.

You continue to act as though no one is addressing your complaint, even though most participants have done so. In response to someone else, you even try to claim that versatility is irrelevant to the complaint. It isn’t, and the idea that it is is patently absurd. Versatility is an advantage that level 1 spells have over cantrips.

The idea that magic missile using a level 1 slot has to be strictly better, at all levels, than any cantrip, is false.

Magic missile (and other level 1 damaging spells) is better than any cantrip is specific situations. You keep saying weird stuff like “That would be a valid point if anyone had brought it up but no one has”....but I and others have done so, repeatedly! But you refuse to address it!

Instead of nitpicking, shifting goalposts, and trying to condescend to people who absolutely get what you’re saying and disagree with you, why not just...try to engage genuinely with what people are saying?

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FrogReaver said:

I provided a reason for my thoughts.

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So far my actual reason hasn’t been spoken of much. Instead a bunch of points unrelated to my reason have been offered as reasons I am wrong.

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Azzy said:

And many don't find merit in your reasons. Thus this impasse. The best option is just for you to do you.



That does seem to be your take on things. Others, OTH, feel that they've adequately addressed your reasons. Again, impasse.

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Blue said:

I think the basic statement about limited usage vs. at-will, while having an intuitive appeal, does not work within the framework of the design goals of the game. I think that all characters have at-will options so that they will always be able to contribute, and then they have varying degrees of limited resources that can provide other boosts. Those with less limited resource boosts will likely have better at-will abilities.

I think there's some cognitive dissonance going on because "cantrips are spells" that don't allow us to evaluate that in the larger game. So let's shake this up and compare the idea that at-will should be inferior to limited usage breaking from that and using another class.

Hypothesis: A limited use resource must always be more powerful than an unlimited use resource.

Example limited use resource: One action used to cast a 1st level direct damage spell with a 1st level slot.
Example at-will resource: Fighter using one action to attack with weapons.

Result: Hypothesis is shown not to be true.

Results if rules changed to support hypothesis: Balance of caster damage and weapon wielder damage will greatly favor casters. Short adventuring days - which favor long-rest-resource-recovery classes more - will become more prevalent. Either a return to quadratic wizard/linear fighter, or if fighter is nerfed we have linear caster / logarithmic fighter who barely ever advances.

This isn't saying that a limited-use resource can't be better, just that it need not be better.

And when at-will features need to be at a level to allow all characters to contribute meaningfully, it's a separate imperative that scales them. Making cantrips one of the examples where there are cases it's better then a limited use resource.

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FrogReaver said:

Divine Smite already does that. At 11th level you get improved divine smite which lets your divine smites do an extra 1d8 so that 1st level slot now does 3d8 instead of 2d8.

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