Why the hate for complexity?

Majoru Oakheart · Mar 13, 2019

Morrus said:
There’s no game that takes twelve steps to resolve an attack. That’s as much an extremism as describing light games as just improv theatre. Sure, both ends at their absurd extremes cease to be useable roleplaying games. Pathfinder, the go-to example of a medium complex game, has two steps - roll to hit, roll for damage. For this conversation to even work, we have to use realistic examples of both.

I think if you factor in a lot of the optional steps then there are plenty. The problem is that complexity doesn't always translate to complication. It always has that potential, however.

For instance, my experience playing 3.5e was that the complexity(or the sheer number of options, if you'd prefer) always slowed down the game because it had the potential to exist at the table even when no one took those options.

You could reduce an attack roll in the game down to 1) Roll to hit and 2) Roll for damage. But within those steps there are many substeps. Those substeps all take time so they really need to be factored in. Even when the substeps don't apply during this particular attack, they still need to be checked to see if they resolve.

For instance:

Pre 1) Declare who you are attacking
Pre 1a) Can you see them?
Pre 1a1) If you can't see them, do you have a magical effect that allows you to see them?
Pre 1a2) If you have a magical effect that allows you to see them do they have a magical effect that counters that?
...
1) You attack them
1a) Do you have any bonuses or penalties on your attack roll from yourself?
1b) Do you have any bonuses or penalties from allies?
1c) Do you have any bonuses or penalties from enemies?
1d) Do you have any bonuses or penalties from the environment?
...

This goes on and on. If a particular substep happens rarely enough, you can mostly ignore it. But when it happens a reasonable number of times, you have to think about it each time.

Practically, this manifests itself as players constantly double checking rules because they can never be sure if the particular step was accidentally missed or it was missed on purpose. One of the most common ones used to be Attacks of Opportunity in 3.5e. Every time someone would do something that provoked one there was a constant barrage of players reminding the DM of all the things that could or might happen:

P1: "He left that square, doesn't he provoke?"
P2: "He might not provoke if he has X ability, that would let him move without provoking."
P1: "Unless I happen to have Y ability which would mean I still get an AOO"
P3: "Right, but then he could do Z to bypass that ability."
DM: "DO you have Y ability?"
P1: "No. But I might have and you never checked."
DM: "It didn't really matter, because as P3 said, he has Z ability which lets him bypass Y. That's why I didn't ask."

That situation could have been resolved very quickly: Monster just moves. However, in practice it took ages because of the number of options in the game.

Flexor the Mighty! · Mar 13, 2019

3.x was pretty concise in theory but in play as levels rose it became a mess of shifting mods to track. The game rapidly became a chore to run as it was really built with the idea that players were buffed to the max and loaded with gear so they usually were.

the Jester · Mar 13, 2019

This is an interesting topic for me. I like a certain amount of complexity on a personal level, but I have a good head for math and can keep a bunch of complex parts in my head. Not lal players are like that. I have several people in my group who are really bad at math, several who tend to forget their character's abilities, etc. So even if I might enjoy some fiddly bits in the game- for instance, I really miss the old "+1 to hit for higher ground" modifier- not everyone else can keep all that fiddly stuff in mind. For a lot of players, the added complexity is added not-fun mental load.

I think a lot of games, in the 3e era, tried for a simulationist approach, with rules describing every case that the pcs might be expected to face in the game. The low-complexity movement arose (I think) largely in response to this. I wouldn't be surprised to see a new wave of high-complexity games arising in the future; this back and forth might be one of those things that is periodic, like the swing of a pendulum.

As with many elements of playstyle preference, I think that 'complex vs. simple ruleset' is a continuum that players move through. Nobody always wants to play the same type of game, and the choice isn't between a simple game and a complex game; some games are far simpler than others, even if both might be considered to be on the simple or complex end of the spectrum. For instance, GURPS is more complex than 3e, which is more complex than 5e, which is more complex than Top Secret, which is more complex than Amber Diceless. Two players who like complex games might still have different preferences as to just how complex they want it.

But I think the basic answer to the OP is, "Right now the pendulum is swung toward simple games".

I'm pretty sure it will swing back.

Flexor the Mighty! · Mar 13, 2019

Part of me would love to run a Hackmaster 5e game. But I know my group would collapse under its complexity. We will see how Mutant Crawl Classics goes when I get a chance.

Sword of Spirit · Mar 14, 2019

Once a renewed interest in RPG theory arises, maybe rules systems that are highly complex but highly elegant will become more of a thing. Some people think RPG design is mature. I completely disagree. It is probably a bit out of its infancy, but still in early childhood.

5ekyu · Mar 14, 2019

First, to me, it's kinda key to separate the "feel" from forums, sales and play. To me those three often are very different things.

Played lotsa high complex and medium and light etc.

Complexity at chargen *can* serve to make more problematic bringing in new players. A steep start-up effort is a hurdle.

Complexity in play can make keeping those new players more difficult.

None of those will really impact "the gang" who has been running ABC since "the old days when it used Roman numerals".

But, in this modern age of online gaming and FLGS Adventure League tables being much more common than the old days where that was more "convention things", I think being able to quickly get up and running with new players or unfamiliar players has grown in value as far as "appeal" to the market goes.

Also, in my experience, complexity is decided at the table level more than at system level. Ye olde "binder of house rules" has added complexity to many light systems and ye olde "rule, roll and move on" has streamlined many rules complex systems as well.

Zhaleskra · Mar 14, 2019

I'm not a fan of the idea of RPG theory at all. From what the Forge did, I am of the opinion that it did way more harm to RPGs than help.

dragoner · Mar 14, 2019

There are still complex games, and people love them, I saw people taking multiple milk crates of Pathfinder books into a local gaming cafe not too long ago. I usually take my messenger bag w/ rules book, portfolio, fire, and some dice; and it's not full.

Li Shenron · Mar 15, 2019

Derren said:
So I wonder where this hate for complexity comes from? Was it always there? Have people grown up, gotten jobs and dont have time/interest to learn rules anymore? Do they feel rules are constricting or that the granularity complex rules add like characters being differently competent in different skills instead of having one modifier for everything doesn't add anything to the game?

Quick thought...

A lot of people who like complexity actually like their own complexity. Almost everyone I know who is a fan of high-complexity games uses house rules in RPG because they are unsatisfied by how things are designed by the authors. I might be wrong, but I have developed the feeling that their true motive is simply wanting to be in charge, and perhaps even wanting to believe they are better than professional designers. It might be just a casual correlation of two different things, but at least it's something I've noticed first-hand in gamers I know. And I am also partially guilty of this myself!

The opposite trend of wanting low-complexity games exists for a variety of reasons, but I cannot exclude that in part is also a reaction to those in the hobby who have the profile above. I'd say however that the main motivation for wanting low-complexity games is simply because higher complexity requires a bigger effort (especially for DMs) but doesn't necessarily improve the game for everyone. Maybe it's the simple fact that the relative amount of gamers who aren't willing to invest too much time to learn the rules or "master" character design, and those who can only afford casual gaming once in a while (and therefore want to quickly get into the game with little preparation) has grown a lot.

However, in theory a low-complexity game can be better for everyone. Those who want low-complexity already have it, and those who want high-complexity are free to add their own rules and designs. If you start with a high-complexity game, it is more difficult to both, for the first to tone it down and for the second to accept what is already provided by the designers, or change it without causing unwanted consequences.

The Crimson Binome · Mar 18, 2019

Li Shenron said:
A lot of people who like complexity actually like their own complexity. Almost everyone I know who is a fan of high-complexity games uses house rules in RPG because they are unsatisfied by how things are designed by the authors. I might be wrong, but I have developed the feeling that their true motive is simply wanting to be in charge, and perhaps even wanting to believe they are better than professional designers. It might be just a casual correlation of two different things, but at least it's something I've noticed first-hand in gamers I know. And I am also partially guilty of this myself!

I think it's less about wanting to be in charge, and more about having a strong vision for what they want from a game. One of the benefits of a complex game is that they can give you a lot more detail about the outcome of an action, but unless you have the exact same vision as the game designer, you probably don't want those specific details.

I can say with absolute certainty that any halfway-competent amateur is better than a professional designer, at delivering the specific content that the amateur is looking for. The amateur knows exactly what they want, and all of the complexity in the game can be used to further that goal. The professional isn't even necessarily looking at the amateur as their target audience.