Pathfinder 2E Pathfinder 2E or Pathfinder 1E?

CapnZapp

Legend
In the face of a popular and good enough version of D&D there isn’t anything Paizo could do.
The problem is thinking yourself as a competitor to WotC.

If you instead consider yourself as building upon WotC's success, offering expansions where WotC won't go... Well, that's the spot where I can see a Paizo that keeps from falling off the radar.

Note: not literally making 5e modules. I still believe they need their own ruleset. Just a ruleset that

a) is palatable to 5e customers
b) avoids ignoring the development lessons of the last decade, and shows an understanding of today's design fashion

That is, very much not the impenetrable playtest.
 

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CapnZapp

Legend
Paizo is probably using the same goalposts that spurred their initial development of Pathfinder: the survival of Paizo as a company. Pathfinder was intended as a stopgap measure to procure their company's survival in the absence of Dragon & Dungeon magazines. The success of Pathfinder was somewhat unexpected for them. I don't think that they are under any delusions about replicating the success of Pathfinder 1 because the market environment has changed.

I will take a more concerted effort to address your ranting with greater seriousness than you had in composing it. I know that you like to supply your own answers to your own questions that you have before even asking them, but just because Pathfinder 2 does not seem to be ticking off your boxes does not mean that it's not meeting the grade for others. I think that it's fairly clear that you want Pathfinder 2 to be something that it's not or what it even aims to be, an opinion which you betray in the bold. You want someone to make 5e Advanced. You have made that clear elsewhere. (insert links to many of the posts where you complain about wanting more player options and customization for 5e here :p) And now you are pitching a conniption fit because Paizo is not dedicating its company resources for that purpose. You have some entitlement issues you need to take care of. If you want an upgrade path to 5e, then it's not Paizo's job as a company to do the work for you.

First, your final sentence ignores an obvious point. Paizo would be nothing without D&D and they almost were nothing when they lost it. Hence, why they developed Pathfinder in the first place. I don't think that Paizo wants their company placed into that sort of dependent situation again.

Second, "It's Pathfinder" will be a good enough answer for some. For you? Obiviously not. For others? Yes, because Paizo has built their brand and they have created their own quality adventure paths and setting materials. I believe that for some, the major draw of Pathfinder 2 will be similar to that of Pathfinder 1: it is built on the d20 3e chassis so there is familiarity in the basics. I am aware that D&D 5E is also built on the same chassis, but so was 4E and a variety of other different games (e.g., Arcana Evolved, 13th Age, Mutants & Masterminds, True20, Dungeon Crawl Classics, Castles & Crusaders, etc.). These games, however, unquestionably have different feels and tones, strengths and weaknesses, as well as mechanics. IMHO, 5E caters to a different sort of fantasy tone than both 3E and 4E, with its self-professed bounded accuracy being fairly telling in that regard. So even within the broader aesthetic of D&D fantasy, I believe that there is room for the sort of high epic fantasy to which Pathfinder 2 aspires.

Pathfinder 2 is definitely novel in comparison to Pathfinder 1, but I would not say that it is "unrecognizably different" because there are too many places where it is obviously "recognizably similar" in its design to Pathfinder 1 and approach to D&D-esque fantasy. If you have played Pathfinder beyond its initial offering, you can see the conceptual history for its developments. Pathfinder 2 - much like with 4e and 5e before it, though in different ways - will seek to address their own issues with their perceived flaws of the 3e d20 system. [MENTION=6776259]Haffrung[/MENTION] has already provided an intial list of some key selling points for some people.
"good luck with that" will be my only reply...
 

CapnZapp

Legend
Erm... are you claiming that 5e is not suitable for high epic fantasy because of bounded accuracy?

There are many valid criticisms that a pathfinder fan could make to explain why 5e doesn't work for them, but I don't think that this is one.
Yes.

I am convinced 5e is capable of all of the kinds of fantasy people want to play, which is all that matters.

It sure does it better than the utterly broken mess that is d20 and therefore PF1 high-level play, which boils down to either auto-success or auto-failure far too often, and with literally thousands of prestige classes in irredeemably broken combos, and unmanageably complicated NPCs.

That 5e is weak and spotty in high level support is another matter, and should be the obvious business opportunity for Paizo. But that presumes building upon what 5e does (very) right instead of ignoring it.
 


CapnZapp

Legend
Is Pathfinder 2 aimed at existing Pathfinder fans, who prefer that game over 5E, because of its idiosyncracies? Or is it aimed at former fans of Pathfinder, who want a reason to go back, but want them to fix their faults first?
Maybe because it seems very few PF1 fans want what PF2 seems to offer?

Or maybe because the much higher market of 5e gamers is sure to stay untapped?

Look, in theory you might have had a point. But even a quick glance at the playtest reveals they have completely lost focus on either.
 

Aldarc

Legend
Maybe because it seems very few PF1 fans want what PF2 seems to offer?

Or maybe because the much higher market of 5e gamers is sure to stay untapped?

Look, in theory you might have had a point. But even a quick glance at the playtest reveals they have completely lost focus on either.
Paizo does not exist to make your dream 5e products.
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
Yes.

I am convinced 5e is capable of all of the kinds of fantasy people want to play, which is all that matters.

It sure does it better than the utterly broken mess that is d20 and therefore PF1 high-level play, which boils down to either auto-success or auto-failure far too often, and with literally thousands of prestige classes in irredeemably broken combos, and unmanageably complicated NPCs.

That 5e is weak and spotty in high level support is another matter, and should be the obvious business opportunity for Paizo. But that presumes building upon what 5e does (very) right instead of ignoring it.
I agree that 5e at high level could easily support high, epic fantasy (with a few bugs as you say). However, I don't think that it is a good system for low fantasy - warhammer 2nd ed would be much better for that, as an example.
 


Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
Bounded Accuracy is another way of saying that characters don't grow significantly over the course of the game. There isn't much that a level 20 fighter can do, that a level 1 fighter can't also do with slightly less reliability. They are both capable of accomplishing difficult tasks (DC 20), or failing at easy ones (DC 13).

Contrast with Pathfinder, where a level 20 character can accomplish things that a level 1 character could not even attempt (DC 40), and has no chance of failing easy checks (DC 20). High-level characters feel much more epic, compared to the world around them. Characters in 5E are much more grounded.
With spells, expertise and stat increase , high level PCs can hit pretty high DCs. A shadow monk rogue multi class can have + 27 to stealth.

A high level fighter can easily defeat most giants, an epic feat of martial prowess a first level fighter never could.
 

wakedown

Explorer
I was Pathfinder's biggest proponent and defender in my local circles for years, but have certainly grown empathetic to various players moreso than I was in the 2015-2016 era. I certainly had to be as most fled to 5e from Pathfinder and finally even my home campaigns have flipped to 5e.

Paizo really dug in deep with rules rules rules vs sandbox and creative adventuring. Their APs really took a dive in this sense too with convoluted influence rules or rebellion rules or what-have-you in every AP. Gone were the days where groups would just be creative on their own but now it's like everything off their presses wants to railroad and shoehorn players -- "Oh you can't actually do that for your rebellion, instead you must choose A or B this week". I exaggerate some, and of course a talented DM can do whatever he/she wants but Paizo's "spirit" these days are to put down rules for everything vs originate beautiful backdrops and fluff and decouple them from the rules.

Many of their most talented designers of old are working on 5e now, so it's like if you want "old school Paizo (circa Dungeon Magazine) feel" you follow those individuals to Kobold Press or Wizards or wherever they've landed. Their latest crop of developers seem to have emerged from Pathfinder Society play which bred the rocket-tag, crunch optimizing style of play which at least locally led to much of the exodus to less rules-heavy games.

I loved feats, I really did. But so many gamers here are so thrilled to play feat-less and just show up to the session without character building "homework" in between sessions, where the penalty for not doing that homework was severe in terms of game balance.
 

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