D&D 5E Again the Banishment spell ruined my game !

seebs said:

This has nothing to do with "making the game easy for the players", because the material component rules would affect NPC casters the same way.

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I actually think this spell, and this issue, sits at a very important structural point in terms of making the game easy or fun for players, for the reason that Banishment is not really a great spell to use on players. It's a dick move. First of all, it removes a player from the action for the duration of a combat, possibly hours of play time ("Sorry, Jerry, hey, while you're out, want to make a quick pizza run?") and secondly, targeted at the right PC (*cough* the Cleric of Life *cough*) in a tough fight, it has the very real potential to be an uncounterable win button.

I may not like players, but even I recognize that this combo doesn't just make life hard for them, it breaks the dynamic of the game. There is no "balance" here. Making Banishment easier to cast is just making the game easier, because if it isn't, and the intention is to smack the PCs around with easy-cast Banishments in return, the dungeon master is missing the point.

Making Banishment challenging serves /everyone/. It adds to the game for the players and gives dungeon masters a good reason /not/ to take the easy road to TPK.

DMZ2112 said:

I actually think this spell, and this issue, sits at a very important structural point in terms of making the game easy or fun for players, for the reason that Banishment is not really a great spell to use on players. It's a dick move. First of all, it removes a player from the action for the duration of a combat, possibly hours of play time ("Sorry, Jerry, hey, while you're out, want to make a quick pizza run?") and secondly, targeted at the right PC (*cough* the Cleric of Life *cough*) in a tough fight, it has the very real potential to be an uncounterable win button.

I may not like players, but even I recognize that this combo doesn't just make life hard for them, it breaks the dynamic of the game. There is no "balance" here. Making Banishment easier to cast is just making the game easier, because if it isn't, and the intention is to smack the PCs around with easy-cast Banishments in return, the dungeon master is missing the point.

Making Banishment challenging serves /everyone/. It adds to the game for the players and gives dungeon masters a good reason /not/ to take the easy road to TPK.

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I don't think banishment is game breaking on either side of the screen. Its just a spell. I can't see how "poof you're gone for a minute" is any worse than " poof you're dead" and we have played with spells like that for a very long time.

ExploderWizard said:

I don't think banishment is game breaking on either side of the screen. Its just a spell. I can't see how "poof you're gone for a minute" is any worse than " poof you're dead" and we have played with spells like that for a very long time.

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Character death is a totally different animal. When your character dies you have something to occupy your time -- rolling up your next character. You can also generally come back as soon as that task is done and the dungeon master can engineer an excuse. "You can't play for the next two hours but don't leave because you're not dead..." well, I hope you have a Ms. Pac Man machine in your basement.

DMZ2112 said:

Character death is a totally different animal. When your character dies you have something to occupy your time -- rolling up your next character. "You can't play for the next two hours but don't leave because you're not dead..." well, I hope you have a Ms. Pac Man machine in your basement.

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That's what henchmen & NPCs are for. In the midst of a battle and no henchmen are nearby? Play one of the NPCs that is whooping that party's butt. The only reason to not stay involved in the game is if you don't want to.

First, as others have pointed out, you do not need to stipulate the component, since it has no monetary value and is assume to be covered by 1) a component pouch or 2) a spellcasting focus/implement negates the need for a material component at all.

That said, I love coming up with things for a consistent and flavorful experience. So, if you want a list of things in your world that will work - not saying other things can't be substituted, but things that would be the most common and/or easily gathered by spellcasters to have in their component pouches - I'm game.

So I ask all of you ..... and ask for help:
- According to the type of enemy

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Let's see what we can do...just as a side note, these whole categories of creatures are really too broad to pick one specific thing as there are creatures in those categories that are just too different. But I'll give it a shot.

a) Aberrations: piece of Blue Quartz (Calming & Harmonizing) or Celestite (Cleansing & Harmonizing)
b) Beasts: This is really too broad a category to make something consistent. Birds might be a birdcage. Aquatic creatures might be "air", but then what about aquatic mammals? For a simple, "works on any Beast", I'm going to say a collar or maybe some small cage or other type/representation of restraint.
c) Celestials: Any holy symbol of any evil deity. Any piece of a demon. "Unholy" [blessed by evil cleric] water.
d) Constructs: A wrench? Or chisel. A small hatchet or token of an axe [for wood golems]. Some simple tool or miniature replica of a tool that might be/have been used to construct them (and so could be used to dismantle them).
e) Dragons: Red/Gold: a crushed/powdered gemstone, Blue/Bronze: piece of wool & amber rod, Green/Copper: desert sand (beach sand will not work , Black/Brass: a blooming flower, Silver/White: fire.
f) Elementals: For Air: some dirt or any stone. For Earth: a fan. For Fire: any amount of water. For Water: any amount of fire or earth -not stone, but dirt so the water would become "trapped" in mud.
g) Feys: cold iron.
h) Fiends: Demons: holy water, holy symbol, silver, any piece of a demon, Devils: holy water, holy symbol, cold-wrought iron, any piece of a devil.
i) Giants: A teeny tiny carving of a giant (looks something like a dwarf) or mouse (dead is fine).
j) Humanoids: Kobolds/Goblins/Orcs/Hobgoblins: a blooming flower or butterfly. Bugbears/Gnolls/Ogres: a tuft of kitten fur or canary feathers + Trolls: Fire.
l) Monstrosities: ??? Individuals might be more interesting, but in general, how about just: pieces [minimum 1 each] of Carnelian (Warmth & Joy) and Citrine (Revitalizing & Cleansing)...sounds like a combination that "Monstrosities" would want to shy away from. Both are necessary, one or the other won't work alone.
m) Oozes: A glass vial, beaker, globe or bowl. Something that could [symbollically] contain them that can't be dissolved.
n) Plants: Fire.
o) undead: All: holy water, any holy symbol, any fire, Agate or [better] Ametrine, + for Wights & Wraiths: any silver + for Vampires: garlic. a mirror.

NPCs/classes will have to wait. Have some things to do.

[MENTION=78752]DMZ2112[/MENTION] Do your combats really run hours?

That's what I'm loving more than anything else in 5E -- good or bad, a fight is over in 20 minutes, tops.

Personally, since that spell component is so vague and so specific at the same time, my wizard just carries a separate pouch of severed Troll schlongs and fellas. You'd be surprised how many varied, different enemies recoil in terror at the sight, and so I can cast Banishment on most things.

You should totally tell the Sorcerer to carry a similar pouch.

DMZ2112 said:

I actually think this spell, and this issue, sits at a very important structural point in terms of making the game easy or fun for players, for the reason that Banishment is not really a great spell to use on players. It's a dick move. First of all, it removes a player from the action for the duration of a combat, possibly hours of play time ("Sorry, Jerry, hey, while you're out, want to make a quick pizza run?") and secondly, targeted at the right PC (*cough* the Cleric of Life *cough*) in a tough fight, it has the very real potential to be an uncounterable win button.

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It's actually not that bad. The spell only lasts 1 minute at maximum. That's 10 rounds of combat. There might be some times when playing through 10 rounds of combat takes hours but IME it hasn't ever happened. You'll sit out an encounter at most.

Disabling enemies is part of what the wizard/cleric is supposed to do. I think it's wrong to impose arbitrary restrictions on it just because it leaves a bad taste in the DM's mouth when the player's breeze through his encounters.

Boarstorm said:

@DMZ2112 Do your combats really run hours?
That's what I'm loving more than anything else in 5E -- good or bad, a fight is over in 20 minutes, tops.

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In general, with a party of four or five and assuming an encounter of standard difficulty and complexity, I agree that is the paradigm. That does not mean that you can't hit two hours easily with a party of eight in a deadly encounter. I'm actually well into round five and hour four of a protracted fight in my current D&D5 campaign. The great weapon fighter has been down to below 5 HP and back up to full /twice/. Freakin' Clerics of Life, man.

BigVanVader said:

Personally, since that spell component is so vague and so specific at the same time, my wizard just carries a separate pouch of severed Troll schlong and fellas. You'd be surprised how many varied, different enemies recoil in terror at the sight, and so I can cast Banishment on most things.
You should totally tell the Sorcerer to carry a similar pouch.

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Just please always remember to cauterize your troll wang.

Tell me some examples according to the enemies down ... "(an item distasteful to the target)":


- According to the type of enemy
a) Aberrations
b) Beasts
c) Celestials
d) Constructs
e) Dragons
f) Elementals
g) Feys
h) Fiends
i) Giants
j) Humanoids
l) monstrosities
m) Oozes
n) Plants
o) undead


- According to monsters and NPCs


a) Cleric / Paladin
b) City Guard
c) powerful Mage
d) Orc / Goblin
e) Troll
f) Mayor of a city
g) King / Queen
h) Elite Soldier
i) Merchant
j) Bard
l) Thief / Assassin
m) Village People
n) Warrior / Gladiator / Barbarian / Veteran
o) Extra planar creature
p) Titan / Empyrean / God
q) Demon Lord
r) Ranger / Druid
s) Tarrasque
t) Vampire
u) Drow / duergar
v) Noble
x) Rakshasa
z) Tiefling


PLEASE !!!!!!!!