D&D 5E World-Building DMs

TwoSix · Dec 2, 2015

delericho said:
I sympathise, but is that a battle worth fighting? If the player chooses to walk away from the campaign because he can't have his gnome, then that still leaves you with one less PC building up those themes and tropes.

Depends. I'd have to evaluate a few things. Is the player interested in the gnome mechanically or thematically? I have no problem reskinning a gnome as a halfling, for example, if the player is primarily interested in the gnome traits. If I'm getting a vibe from the players that they're not particularly into the setting (maybe besides the gnome guy, everyone else is taking purely generic characters and nothing Dark Sun specific), that I'd probably just suggest moving the campaign in another direction and out of Dark Sun.

I know out of the players I have that are also my friends, none of them would be insistent on playing a particular character type if the DM isn't on board. And if I'm playing with someone I don't know well, that sort of intransigence just suggests to me we wouldn't be a good fit. As a player in a new game, I bend over backwards to make sure the DM and I are on the same page with any character I make, and I would expect the same courtesy from a player joining my own game.

delericho · Dec 2, 2015

TwoSix said:
Sure. More than one PC playing a race or class not intended for the campaign setting. The existence of any class dependent on changing the cosmological basis of magic and how it works in the campaign setting.

Yep, that's fair.

In the example of the Gnome Cleric, then, I'd allow that if and only if the player were willing to compromise on his choice of patron - he could be a cleric of one of the elements, but not of GG. As we all know, "no gods" is a key feature of Dark Sun and so that would be a deal-breaker.

The 'gnome' part of it I would be willing to work around.

(I'd also probably soften slightly on the "not intended for" part of your statement, actually - if it's something that had been deliberately removed, such as gnomes, it would be out-by-default; if it was merely something that hadn't been included, perhaps because it didn't yet exist or it was third-party, I would at least consider it. Something like 3e's Soulknife would seem ideally suited as a fit, for example.)

TwoSix · Dec 2, 2015

delericho said:
(I'd also probably soften slightly on the "not intended for" part of your statement, actually - if it's something that had been deliberately removed, such as gnomes, it would be out-by-default; if it was merely something that hadn't been included, perhaps because it didn't yet exist or it was third-party, I would at least consider it. Something like 3e's Soulknife would seem ideally suited as a fit, for example.)

Sure, it's absolutely context-sensitive. Psionics is a big part of Dark Sun, so things like the Soulknife are an easy fit. Stuff like Binders or Incarnum or Vampires I'd allow with some refluffing, but if a good portion of the party requires a refluff, that's when I consider moving onto another setting.

To be fair, I also do very little prep, so it's much easier for me to canvas my players and see what they're interested in than people who spend tens or hundreds of hours setting up their campaign.

delericho · Dec 2, 2015

Nagol said:
Only if the no one else wants to sit in the chair. All too often that is not the case.

TwoSix said:
I know out of the players I have that are also my friends, none of them would be insistent on playing a particular character type if the DM isn't on board. And if I'm playing with someone I don't know well, that sort of intransigence just suggests to me we wouldn't be a good fit.

Yep. As far as I can see, this is only really an issue if you're dealing with a player who, for whatever reason, you don't want to lose from your table; and who, for whatever reason, is insistent on this particular character.

So, if you need three players for there to be a game, you have a pool of three players, and one guy must play a gnome...

Or if the one guy is a good friend and he's been sitting on this great character for months that he's desperate to play...

Or whatever, really. Obviously, if you have plenty of other guys ready to take the spot, or if he's happy to change his concept, then it's a non-issue - "I'll sit this one out" is a perfectly reasonable position to take, and shouldn't be a major issue for any concerned (with the caveat that people aren't always reasonable, of course!).

SkidAce · Dec 2, 2015

TwoSix said:
While I'm fully in the camp of "Let the DM do his pitch, and work with the DM to make a PC who fits the game," there's a lot of community expectation, dependent on the system. I would be leery of starting and/or joining a PF game that was Core Rulebook only, because the fun is Pathfinder is all of the interlocking pieces that have come out for it. Likewise, most other non-D&D systems I would walk into with the expectation of fairly by the book play. I haven't seen a Vampire game where the Storyteller is like "Ok, I've replaced these 3 clans with 4 clans I've made myself," because knowledge of the game's overall mythology is much more central to play.

Only up to page 19, but I wanted to foot stomp and quote this, cause there is some wisdom and truth here, about expectations.

SkidAce · Dec 2, 2015

Devil's Advocate: Can I play a human wizard that is not a defiler or preserver in your Dark Sun game?

delericho · Dec 2, 2015

SkidAce said:
Devil's Advocate: Can I play a human wizard that is not a defiler or preserver in your Dark Sun game?

Not really - a defiler is a Wizard whose spells destroy the environment; a preserver is one whose spells don't. That's pretty binary, so there's not really any third option!

(Though I actually prefer 3e's approach where they're all actually just Wizards, and can defile or not on a spell-by-spell basis. That strikes me as the better way forward - defiling becomes something of a Faustian pact the PC is constantly facing.)

hawkeyefan · Dec 2, 2015

SkidAce said:
Devil's Advocate: Can I play a human wizard that is not a defiler or preserver in your Dark Sun game?

I'd work with you on that. But by being neither, really I'd see it as being both. Sometimes you defile and sometimes you preserve. Pretty sure this is how the character Sadira was portrayed in the books, at least initially.

Wouldn't be hard to come up with a system for how that works. Maybe allow spells to be cast at higher level if you cast them as a defiler? The 5E mechanics seem to allow for a few options that would support this aspect of the setting.

And this just demonstrates the world building aspect when a DM decides not to just say No to a reasonable player request. Especially one that plays with the lore of the setting.

SkidAce · Dec 2, 2015

Thanks [MENTION=22424]delericho[/MENTION] for the explanation, it was actually more of a rhetorical question for the "debate" as I have played a lot of Dark Sun starting around 2E.

Was hoping there would be constructive discussion on the nuances of "just how far" can a character concept go before it "ruins" a setting. Or even can it?

To answer my own question;

My initial response when running a Dark Sun campaign would be "No, why?".

After reading this thread, specifically the gnome parts where they talked about "last survivor" "delusional" etc, makes me wonder what I would do if the player had a really interesting idea for said wizard.

Still, as you say, preserving/defiling is pretty integral, I would likely remain of the opinion that "No" was the proper answer.

SkidAce · Dec 2, 2015

And thank you [MENTION=6785785]hawkeyefan[/MENTION] , your viewpoint is just as illuminating to the discussion for me as the others.

D&D 5E World-Building DMs

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer

delericho

Legend

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer

delericho

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SkidAce

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SkidAce

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delericho

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hawkeyefan

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SkidAce

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SkidAce

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