DMs Guild Can You Fund A DMs Guild Product On Kickstarter?

Back in January, WotC's Mike Mearls was asked that question; he replied "Yes, but be sure to look at the terms of use for the DM's Guild to make sure you understand how they apply to your product." It seems that OneBookShelf (the company which runs DMs Guild for WotC) has now clarified this statement to make it clear that while you can theoretically fund a product via Kickstarter, you can't distribute it via that platform.


DMsGuild-Logo.png



DLI Media, which launched a Kickstarter for an adventure trilogy this week, was told by OBS' Director of Publishing and Marketing:

Someone linked us to your Kickstarter and I wanted to touch base about a few things. DMsGuild creators cannot release titles on both DMsGuild and DriveThruRPG and they cannot use Kickstarter to "sell" their DMsGuild publications.

The wording on your Kickstarter makes me think this is more of an OGL type product, which is great because we have a ton of awesome 5e OGL content on DriveThruRPG and you are already set up to sell there.

You would only need to remove the DMsGuild elements (logos and text) from your Kickstarter page and continue on with your plans to sell on and fulfill your project via DriveThruRPG.com.


The email was followed up with further clarification:


The issue is you are in violation of the license on DMsGuild with your Kickstarter. All DMsGuild creations must remain exclusive to that storefront. They cannot be sold on DriveThruRPG, other storefronts, nor via Kickstarter tiers.

While it is true someone could run a Kickstarter to fund artwork or development of a DMsGuild title, they cannot offer tiers that provide backers copies of the title product. So, I imagine tiers would have to be "special thanks" or "game with the designer at Gen Con" or "your likeness used as one of the NPCs" all backers would still have to buy the book on DMsGuild once it launched as the publisher wouldn't be able to sell them a copy via crowdfunding.


Which is pretty much what's been said all along. No big surprises. It seems that it's a simple problem with a simple solution, though: allow publishers on DMsG to send complimentary products from that platform.


The DMsGuild license specifically agreed to by content creators states that all DMG titles are exclusive to the DMsGuild.com storefront. Putting the PDF on Kickstarter violates that exclusivity. You are specifically listing your title (understanding that it isn't officially released yet) on another site and not on DMsGuild. It wouldn't be available on DMsGuild until after you've collected funds and finished the project.

DMsGuild creators do not currently have the tool set to upload PoD files themselves.

It does sound like making adjustments and releasing this title on DriveThruRPG as a 5e OGL product would work better for your overall setup.


So, right now, Kickstarter isn't much use for DMsG products. But it sounds like some minor technical changes could solve that. In the meantime, if you want to create a 5E product and fund it via Kickstarter, the best bet is to produce an OGL product instead, like many companies are already doing.

So, no big news or anything, but a clarification that some folks might find useful before going ahead with their Kickstarters!

In other news, both Margaret Weis Productions Cortex+, and Mongoose Publishing Traveller, are the latest OBS DMsG-style third-party stores to open up, with Monte Cook Games' Cypher System store opening very soon. Seems to be a popular model! OBS refers to these as "Community Content Programs".
 

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My understanding is that when you post on the DMsG, you can only distribute it via the DMsG. So, you could Kickstart it, but then you could not distribute it directly to the backers. Where it gets hazy is if you try to send your backers a "complimentary" copy via the DMsG and then charge other people for it through the DMsG. As purely a sponsor/patron (patreon) approach, I don't see an issue, but not sure why anyone would buy into the KS then...
 

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As purely a sponsor/patron (patreon) approach, I don't see an issue, but not sure why anyone would buy into the KS then...

That is certainly the question. We *do* know from the example of Patreon that people will patronise something, even when the result is shared publicly. For example, I contribute money to every one of Dyson's maps, even though they are all released for free.

If people are excited by a project and want to see it created, I think there's every chance they will support it. It's also possible to build in some legal rewards, if done carefully. Inline credit is one obvious idea. Another would be to have some exclusive material (say, a bonus level) that is OGL rather than DMs Guild, and which is only sent to backers.

Another possibility would be to release the product on the DMs Guild for free for a couple of weeks, and then put a price on it. That way the backers (and anyone else) can download a copy for free, but it's not free forever.

I certainly take Morrus's point - why go to all this trouble when you can just release the whole product under OGL instead? For me, the answer is in two parts - 1) the DMs Guild is where I've built my brand and where I'm mostly likely to see success, and 2) I want to write material for *Dungeons & Dragons*, not generic 5E Fantasy.
 

I think you can do it legally. If you pay attention (which you've obviously do). Also, if OBS/WotC didn't like it, I think they would handle it politely and professionally (from the few things I've seen recently) rather than being vindictive or ... aggressive.

So far, IMO, I agree that the DMsG is a good distribution point and well worth the additional restrictions/overhead. But that could always change, but you do have alternatives if you need them.

I have yet to participate in KS or Patreon, so I can't speak from experience, but my (limited) impression is that people view them very differently and that people expect a tangible benefit from a KS, whereas with Patreon they see it supporting an artist they want to see successful. But, I may be wrong, or you might be able to change that if I am right.
 

I have yet to participate in KS or Patreon, so I can't speak from experience, but my (limited) impression is that people view them very differently and that people expect a tangible benefit from a KS, whereas with Patreon they see it supporting an artist they want to see successful.
Well, the tangible benefit is that they receive the product (in PDF). The difference is that lots of other people will potentially receive the product too (for free). I don't know whether people would buy into such a concept or not.

I have only the vaguest of ideas for a kickstarter at the moment, so still some way off. And I've still got some work to do in terms of building a potential audience..!
 

surfarcher

First Post
It seems to me in general that these approaches (Kickstarter or Patreon) are attempts to get around the 50% cut that the DMsG gets for products sold on their site. In short, it would be like trying to get a store to allow you to use their logo and storefront and hand out coupons to people you scalp tickets to at a lower price.
Yeah. I'm not seeing the problem. A properly run Kickstater will make far more money than anybody will make for the same product on DMsG.
Maybe I am in a unique position?

I was toying with the idea of having a Patreon page and releasing all my content as free (or PWYW) on dmsguild. I was simply going to put all the donations into buying artwork. Because USD$50 - USD$100 for full colour artwork is expensive for a pure hobbyist, right? And getting the right artwork for that unusual/niche critter is far from easy.

And clearly launching a company, kickstarter, blah blah blah is huge overkill... And frankly unlikely to be successful.

Right now I feel like just giving up entirely.

From what I can see, there is no problem getting a DMs Guild product funded via Kickstarter so long as you then release it for free on the DMs Guild. In that case, your backers on Kickstarter are really your patrons rather than your customers.

Has anyone actually confirmed this? I may be able to make something along those lines work.

Edit: Apologies if that seemed at all negative or anything of that sort. I'm sure there's a way through this. I guess being near the end of a moderately long learning curve and getting frustrated by this at the end is disheartening.
 
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Has anyone actually confirmed this? I may be able to make something along those lines work.

The proposal appears to meet with the DMs Guild content agreement. The main problem with the product mentioned in the OP was that the product was being delivered outside of the DMs Guild. So long as you only distribute your title via the DMs Guild (which you could do as a PWYW or freebie), I believe you would be complying with the guidelines.

No doubt OBS would get in touch with you if they thought you were violating the Terms & Conditions - and they were quite friendly about it in the email above. This proposal is a much better result for WOTC as well - they have your new product as part of their catalog, and they will potentially make money of it after it goes "paid".

If you look at the product mentioned in the OP, the final solution was a bad result for WOTC - the creator switched over to an OGL license going via RPGNow, and WOTC are cut out of the deal completely.

Don't give up - these are tricky questions to navigate because we are dealing with new forms of commerce. It will all get sorted out eventually - perhaps you will be the first to "crack the code".
 

surfarcher

First Post
Thanks @M.T. Black .... I'm feeling more positive again this morning. I'm sure I'll get something working.

My original thought was to have the content on multiple sites but naturally that isn't allowed. Which I completely understand.

At the moment I'm thinking along the lines of simply releasing all the content as free. Then having both a Paypal donate button and a Patreon page (the main benefit of which is, I guess, an inside line to me). Every cent is going into producing content anyway. Noone contributes it'll be rather slow going lol

I wonder if I should ask the guys at WotC directly... Only Greg was the main guy from that side of things that I talked with. Maybe I should ask him who to ask lol

Edit: Always cool to get an enworld response from a fellow aussie :-D
 
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I wonder if I should ask the guys at WotC directly...

I doubt they would be willing to give any potentially legally binding advice. It's most likely going to have to be a "suck it and see" approach. Like I said, they are quite nice about approaching people who might be in violation of agreement - they are still figuring all of this stuff out themselves. It's a brave new world...
 

surfarcher

First Post
I doubt they would be willing to give any potentially legally binding advice. It's most likely going to have to be a "suck it and see" approach. Like I said, they are quite nice about approaching people who might be in violation of agreement - they are still figuring all of this stuff out themselves. It's a brave new world...
Oh for sure. But they are very good with giving advice on the intent, particularly in a private conversation.
 


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