Variants/Subclass for a DPR Rogue

So, some folks are disappointed that the 5e rogue is not focused on DPR, while others are happy that the Rogue basically auto-wins at skill stuff, and are satisfied with moderate damage output.

I am in a third camp. I love the 5e Rogue as it is, but would also love to see a DPR focused subclass and perhaps some options for variant class features that support a more 4e style "kill stuff like a rad killing machine" rogue.

I'm not interested in adding class features, unless it's going to be a ribbon or something like that. In general, let's keep a similar total power level to the PHB.
[MENTION=12731]CapnZapp[/MENTION] I know you're more in the "the rogue just isn't good, overall" camp, but I'd love to hear any thoughts you have that are within the scope of the brief above.

My preliminary thoughts, in very rough draft, are:

Subclass:

There is room, here, for a strength rogue.

• Expanded weapon list that works with Sneak Attack, including glaive, longsword, any one handed weapon or versatile weapon.
• Your attacks that qualify for Sneak Attack deal extra damage equal to your Strength mod.
• Once per short rest, you can deal Sneak Attack damage a second time per turn.
• Level 9, gain Extra Attack
• 13th, add Str mod as a bonus on all Dex checks and saves? too much for 13? 13 tends to be more utility, rather than power.
• 17th, gotta be big. SA on every attack for 1 minute, 1/rest? Auto-crit 1/rest? Max SA damage when you crit? Expanded Crit Range?

Alternatively, what about a swordsman subclass that is about ruthless efficacy rather than flair and panache?

• Maneuver dice, or expanded crit range and extra dice on crits?
• Maneuver dice are pretty obvious in what they'd do, but also....meh. play a dex battlemaster with the skilled feat? We don't need direct overlap here, I don't think.

Variant Features:

• Deadly Expertise (replace expertise): You gain 1 skill or tool expertise, and you add your proficiency bonus to all damage rolls with weapon attacks that would qualify for Sneak Attack. At level 6, you gain another skill or tool expertise, and you crit on a 19 or 20 when your attack would qualify for Sneak Attack.
• Terrible Efficacy (replace reliable talent): When you roll a 5 or lower on an ability check that allows you to add your proficiency bonus, you instead treat it as having rolled a 6. Whenever you miss by 5 or less with an attack that would qualify for Sneak Attack, you deal half of your Sneak Attack damage, and cannot benefit from Sneak Attack again this turn.

So, thoughts?

I do not think the thief lacks damage when it hits using SA, the thief in my game seems to do the most damage each round. This is true even not after 5th level when the fighter gets a 2nd attack. Granted we do not play with feats which I see influence things a lot.

I do not mind a more fighter/thief without multiclassing. I like that the 2nd attack comes at 9th level and not at 5th like so many other classes. The strength for damage and SA makes sense. I could see something where they can take one weapon to make a finesse weapon if they want. A first level thief may take Dex instead of Str and now be stuck needing strength.

You’re sure you want to bring back the 4ed rogue?
Big and strong guy that kill stuff look more like the 4ed slayer to me,

This is literally the assassin. Auto-critical when you act first, doubling sneak dice, and at high levels the ability to death strike.

I wish to be placed in the fourth camp:
The one that thinks Rogues shouldn't exist

That said, Arcane Tricksters have significantly more DPR than their brethren, thanks to spells like Shadow Blade, Haste, and Booming Blade.

aco175 said:

I do not think the thief lacks damage when it hits using SA, the thief in my game seems to do the most damage each round. This is true even not after 5th level when the fighter gets a 2nd attack. Granted we do not play with feats which I see influence things a lot.

I do not mind a more fighter/thief without multiclassing. I like that the 2nd attack comes at 9th level and not at 5th like so many other classes. The strength for damage and SA makes sense. I could see something where they can take one weapon to make a finesse weapon if they want. A first level thief may take Dex instead of Str and now be stuck needing strength.

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Choosing a weapon is fine, as long as that feature isn’t overvalued in the balance analysis, like it was with the Kensei monk. It’s barely more than a ribbon.

Krachek said:

You’re sure you want to bring back the 4ed rogue?
Big and strong guy that kill stuff look more like the 4ed slayer to me,

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There are strength rogue options in 4e. This in no way resembles the slayer.

Jester David said:

This is literally the assassin. Auto-critical when you act first, doubling sneak dice, and at high levels the ability to death strike.

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It’s literally not the assassin, at all.

The assassin is not a DPR focused rogue, at all. it’s a situationally nova-capable infiltrator.

So, I realize this suggestion will already go in a little different direction then what you are asking for, but...

I've always been annoyed that in 5E every single class, except the rogue, either gets full spell progression through level 9 spells, or gets Extra Attack at level 5. Some classes even get both through their subclass, ie Bladesinger, Valor Bard or even Pact of the Blade Warlock with Thirsting Blade.

While I think that just giving the Rogue Extra Attack and changing nothing else would be too much, I think the class should certainly get Extra Attack.

To that end, I would propose making Sneak Attack an action, and not just a rider on a regular attack. Also, increase the damage to 1d8:

Beginning at 1st level, you know how to strike subtly and exploit a foe’s distraction. As an action, once per turn, make an attack roll against a creature. If the attack hits, you deal an extra 1d8 damage. You must have advantage on the attack roll to use this ability and the attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon.

You don’t need advantage on the attack roll if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it, that enemy isn’t incapacitated, and you don’t have disadvantage on the attack roll.

The amount of the extra damage increases as you gain levels in this class, as shown in the Sneak Attack column of the Rogue table.


So with that change, give the Rogue Extra Attack at 5 and the Dueling, Archery and Two Weapon Fighting style choices at level 2.

This overall doesn't increase their damage that much, but it does increase their flexibility, making them less reliant on Sneak Attack to be viable in combat. Can't get sneak attack this round? At least you get your two attacks.

doctorbadwolf said:

It’s literally not the assassin, at all. The assassin is not a DPR focused rogue, at all. it’s a situationally nova-capable infiltrator.

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I'd be very reluctant to make a rogue that does more damage per round than an assassin. The rogue doesn't suffer in the damage department, and existing optimised builds using the thief and assassin (or swashbuckler) can already hold their own with any class. The rogue simply doesn't need to do *more* damage, especially not reliably and regularly. That's ignoring the fact the story and narrative of a "DPR subclass" is as weak as wet tissue.

Jester David said:

I'd be very reluctant to make a rogue that does more damage per round than an assassin. The rogue doesn't suffer in the damage department, and existing optimised builds using the thief and assassin (or swashbuckler) can already hold their own with any class. The rogue simply doesn't need to do *more* damage, especially not reliably and regularly. That's ignoring the fact the story and narrative of a "DPR subclass" is as weak as wet tissue.

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Normally, I respect your opinion on the game. In this case, “I’m disinterested in the point of this thread” is better stated by not posting in the thread.

[MENTION=6866167]Thurmas[/MENTION] that’s an interesting idea. While I like that rogues play differently than any other class, that isn’t a bad idea way to give a very simple change that brings the rogue to where many players want them.

@Jester David btw, the assassin is still a mostly exploration and interaction focused subclass. The point with the subclasses is to have 1 or more option for the rogue that adds nothing to those pillars beyond what’s in the base class. The assassin does not do that much damage in most sessions, it certainly isn’t reliable. In doing comparable damage to other damage focused options. A rogue that gives up some skill monkeying to reach the top tier in combat efficacy isn’t unreasonable.