Mike Mearls tweet: Is the Known World of Mystara coming to 5e? (What's Cool About Mystara?)

SkidAce · Apr 5, 2018

Remathilis said:
There is only two settings that are defined more by what isn't allowed than what's added: Dragonlance and Dark Sun. Even Dragonlance doesn't come close to requiring an alternate phb to play. Dark Sun literally redefines everything in the core D&D books. You can't play Dark Sun with the PHB the same way you can play every other setting; that to me says it really should be it's on thing.

I can dig your view that it could/should be its own thing. That's fair.

But I do not go so far as to say Dark Sun is not D&D. It is D&D, modified for sure.

Semantics? Not on purpose, I don't feel it is important to draw a line on whats D&D and what isn't based on excluded classes or modified rules. Heck my campaign could be thrown out of the D&D category by some viewpoints. (No halfings, a necromancer cast a 10th level spell way back in history and genocided them.)

However, I assure, by common parlance, we are playing D&D.

Game on!

Coroc · Apr 5, 2018

[MENTION=7635]Remathilis[/MENTION] #99 Ok, now i begin to see more clearly. But let me counter that: To use Ravenloft with the original vibe which encompasses 99% of the published material except curse of strahd 5 e accesoire you got to:

-Treat every dragonborn, drow, halforc and in several Domains even elves or dwarves as Monsters by most NPCs. Their natural reaction might range from distrust via fear to outright agression.

- Analyse every published 5E spell for a "evil" denominator like e.g. casting "power word kill" and most damaging necromatic spells like "ray of sickness" would clearly be an evil act and call for a powers check (new mechanic you would have to introduce) with appropriate punishments for the PCs. These of course must be checked for Balance in accordance to 5e game mechanics if they include e.g. permanent ability score losses.

- Depending on the darklord but applicable for most of the better known Domains most Paladins of lawful good alignment are marked for KoS the Moment they appear in a Domain. And there is no easy way out, a darklord sees the General Location of a Paladin in his Domain like a flare, and will go any means to eliminate him, be it by his minions or by himself.

Sounds pretty complicated, no? But that is only three examples of what it takes to get Ravenloft close to the original vibe while using 5E. In fact it is not that complicated, following my basic principles i did run a 5E ravenloft campaign by converting the Hyskosa Hexad adventures, so it was totally possible and we had fun playing them (my Players growing up with 3.5 did not know the adventures so it was double fun)

So even campaign worlds of which you think that they are close to the 5E rules are in fact heavy variations, and that is no Problem at all, since the Background math rules cover it all, they serve as a weighted random Generator tool which can be influenced by Players or DMs choices of Action.

Remathilis · Apr 5, 2018

Coroc said:
[MENTION=7635]Remathilis[/MENTION] #99 Ok, now i begin to see more clearly. But let me counter that: To use Ravenloft with the original vibe which encompasses 99% of the published material except curse of strahd 5 e accesoire you got to:

-Treat every dragonborn, drow, halforc and in several Domains even elves or dwarves as Monsters by most NPCs. Their natural reaction might range from distrust via fear to outright agression.

- Analyse every published 5E spell for a "evil" denominator like e.g. casting "power word kill" and most damaging necromatic spells like "ray of sickness" would clearly be an evil act and call for a powers check (new mechanic you would have to introduce) with appropriate punishments for the PCs. These of course must be checked for Balance in accordance to 5e game mechanics if they include e.g. permanent ability score losses.

- Depending on the darklord but applicable for most of the better known Domains most Paladins of lawful good alignment are marked for KoS the Moment they appear in a Domain. And there is no easy way out, a darklord sees the General Location of a Paladin in his Domain like a flare, and will go any means to eliminate him, be it by his minions or by himself.

Sounds pretty complicated, no? But that is only three examples of what it takes to get Ravenloft close to the original vibe while using 5E. In fact it is not that complicated, following my basic principles i did run a 5E ravenloft campaign by converting the Hyskosa Hexad adventures, so it was totally possible and we had fun playing them (my Players growing up with 3.5 did not know the adventures so it was double fun)

So even campaign worlds of which you think that they are close to the 5E rules are in fact heavy variations, and that is no Problem at all, since the Background math rules cover it all, they serve as a weighted random Generator tool which can be influenced by Players or DMs choices of Action.

The difference here is exclusion vs unwise. A player can play an elf in many domains (usually hiding or in disguise) but in others like Barovia and Darkon they are tolerated. Paladins might be kos but in other domains the darklord lacks the resources to do so (Nova Vaasa or Lamordia). Casting "evil" magic is unwise, but not hard banned. I can play a dragonborn paladin or drow necromancer, but it's not necessary Wise or easy. Contast that to Athas; can I play a gnome bard; unwise or not? Are paladins KoS or simply not allowed?

Settings should flavor the core game, they shouldn't rewrite it.

Remathilis · Apr 5, 2018

As a side note, I think the 3e versions of Ravenloft and Dragonlance both show how a setting rooted in 2e assumptions of world can be updated to more modern design. 4e Dark Sun was similar. It requires some flexibility to allow new classes or races, but if monks can exist in 3e Dragonlance or warlocks in 4e Dark Sun, I don't see where the issue lies.

Coroc · Apr 5, 2018

[MENTION=7635]Remathilis[/MENTION] #103 But these Settings do not rewrite the core game. Even in the core game drow and dragonborn are optional except maybe AL i don't know about that. And the cor mechanics stay the same, you still got six attributes hit Points a proficiency Bonus, initiative to hit roll etc. etc.

Nothing of the math is altered. You compare things like not admitting a race for a specific campaign world with altered mechanics, such as armor for damage reduction or percentile dice for to hit rolls, or spell armor class instead of saving throws. Thats not the Point of a 5e conversion. A conversion should stay as true as possible, for the mechanics - but classes, races, spells, allowed is nothing different than allowing an accessoire like SCAG or not. You would never suggest that instead of Publishing SCAG Wizards should have created a different game System, would you?

Coroc · Apr 5, 2018

[MENTION=7635]Remathilis[/MENTION] #104 i do partially agree on 3e RL and DL 4e darksun is debatable, but i cannot judge that much about 4e because i never played it except in Neverwinter MMPORPG. From what i know 4e seems to be a pretty good System for Darksun though if you consider the mechanics, especially for healing in 4e.

Monks in DL is not unbalancing things. No Dragon riding Knight of Takisis will be impressed by a Monk.
Monks in DS unbalance everything, the survival vibe, the inferior weapon / armor System, all of that does not hamper the Monk the slightest but almost every other class / build (Same goes for barbarian in a way)

5E Warlocks would be great for Templars i hope it is the official ruling if they ever do one, it fits so much better than clerics.
5E Warlocks could even be a good Substitution for elemental clerics,just make the patron some elemental prince.

But this does not alter the vibe, and it does not alter the challenges so it does not hurt at all. In game you do not see wehre the "divine" Magic Comes from.
Same would go for your Gnome bard though, in game he would look like a defiler abomination to NPCs thats all. He would not break balance that is for sure, but if he called himself a bard People would be careful and consider him to be a poison using asassin. And if they caught him casting arcane magic, well since he has no means to actively preserve or defile he would automatically defile and be marked as a witch which best is killed. So i guess in your view the Gnome bard would at least fall under the "unwise" category

Tales and Chronicles · Apr 5, 2018

Despite my initial position on new Darksun material, many people make good points:
1) A Setting that requires to throw out 70% of the base game should be left to 3PP (like Middle-Earth).
2) A setting that just refluff 70% of the PHB content does not require a new book.

So, with this in mind, Darksun could probably be built on top of the PHB:
Fighter: most archetype work well, maybe add a 1/3 mystic battlemind we already have a Gladiator background, so I dont think we need an archetype for that.
Rogue: We need a str-based rogue, but appart from that the rest still works. maybe a 1/3 mystic soulknife.
Ranger: So some features makes survival easier, lets see that as a feature, not a bug; this is what rangers do.
Cleric: new water, fire and earth domain. The one from the PHB may still exist a elemental lords.
Paladin: They are no longer divinely inspired by gods so it works. To go full-Athas on them, create an Oath for each city/SK, with an Oath of Freedom for Tyr paladins.
Sorcerer: Works well since Athas tends to mutate individuals. May need more elemental origins and the giant origin from MM.
Bard: Ok, now athasian bards have magic. Why not? The whisper bard works quite well for this theme.
Druid: They work well, maybe new terrains and beast wildshapes.
Warlock: GOO's still good, fiend and fey dont fit. MM worked of a Kraken patron some time ago, could work. Also a drake pact or para-elemental pact can be fun.
Barbarian: Maybe new totems. That's it really.
and then add a mystic class.

Races works ok-ish. Add some sub-races and add a small sidebar that explains of to use the ones from the PHB in the setting.
New rules for defiling, equipment and that's it.

Paul Farquhar · Apr 5, 2018

Bard: Ok, now athasian bards have magic. Why not? The whisper bard works quite well for this theme.

The "why not" is any use of arcane magic causes environmental damage. This is central to the setting, so full caster bards should be defilers.

Personally, I would rather throw out caster bards and introduce a non-caster bard as a rogue subclass.

But then I have a personal bias - I hate full caster bards, and indeed bards that cast anything other than druid spells. If you give something a Welsh name you should draw on Welsh myth.

Tales and Chronicles · Apr 5, 2018

Paul Farquhar said:
The "why not" is any use of arcane magic causes environmental damage. This is central to the setting, so full caster bards should be defilers.

Personally, I would rather throw out caster bards and introduce a non-caster bard as a rogue subclass.

But then I have a personal bias - I hate full caster bards, and indeed bards that cast anything other than druid spells. If you give something a Welsh name you should draw on Welsh myth.

I'm with you on this. I dont know why they didnt just make the Bard class the fabled arcane gish instead of making him a full caster for no apparent reason. But since we have them like they are in the PHB, lets roll with it for the sake of PHB-Setting compatibility: bards have arcane powers that can defile, just like warlocks and sorcerers.

I mean, if I was making a Darksun campaign book only for myself, I would just remove all arcane and cleric spellcasting and give it only to evil NPC: I dont want my players to use the power that kills the world, even if the concept of heroes in Darksun is more vague. Spellcasting would be given in the form of druid circle for elemental lords or the psionics classes.

Jer · Apr 5, 2018

Paul Farquhar said:
Personally, I would rather throw out caster bards and introduce a non-caster bard as a rogue subclass.

Except what would you put into that subclass? For any non-caster bard I can think of it feels more like a background mixed with how you assign your skill choices than a full subclass.

That's actually probably how I'd handle the Athasian bard - make it a background that you can slap onto any class. Then the question becomes of what to do with the bard class itself on Athas. It could be disallowed entirely or reskinned to be something else I suppose.

Mike Mearls tweet: Is the Known World of Mystara coming to 5e? (What's Cool About Mystara?)

SkidAce

Legend

Coroc

Hero

Remathilis

Legend

Remathilis

Legend

Coroc

Hero

Coroc

Hero

Tales and Chronicles

Jewel of the North, formerly know as vincegetorix

Paul Farquhar

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Tales and Chronicles

Jewel of the North, formerly know as vincegetorix

Jer

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