Super Simple Weapons

guachi said:

What's the d6 finesse light thrown weapon supposed to be? That doesn't currently exist on the weapon tables.

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A flying rapier!

Edit: Scratch that.

A chakram. It should always be a chakram.

mrpopstar said:

Compared to one wielding a two-handed weapon, a two-weapon fighting barbarian would be doing an average of 6.5 more damage per use of the attack action. That's a pretty big difference, especially over time.

Personally, I would make it so that barbarians fighting two-handed or two-weapon fighting rolled 2d12 and chose the highest of the two dice for their damage (essentially granting their weapon damage advantage). It's an elegant solution that speeds up play (only rolling once per attack action) and keeps all things relatively equal regardless of wield choice (two-weapon fighting and two-handed fighting would have more reliable damage average as compared to one-handed fighters but no one would be out damaging anyone within the same class).

As far as multiclassing goes, if you take a level in a class with higher hit dice, you bump your damage dice up by one level (maximum d12).

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I'm starting to think you put more thought into this idea than I did.

I really like your solution for the two-handed/two weapon attacks.

I guess another option would be to have a two-handed attack move up one die size and two-weapon fighting move down one die size (so a fighter attacking two-handed with a battleaxe would roll a d12 for damage, and a fighter wielding two short swords or whatever would roll d8s for damage), but that seems unnecessarily fiddle compared to your solution. Especially since barbarians are SOL if they wield a weapon two-handed.

So yeah, yours works better.

The Original Posts makes each category appealing.

The reason to pick a martial melee medium weapon − longsword − is because it deals the most damage if using a shield.

The reason to pick a martial melee light small weapon − shortsword − is because it benefits from dexterity.

The reason to pick a martial melee heavy large weapon − greatsword − is because it gains reach at the cost of two hands.



This solves important mechanical problems.

Personally, I would simplify all ranges to 30 feet (throw) or 300 feet (shoot). This roughly equates 10 meters and 100 meters, respectively.

Riley37 said:

DM: "As you approach the city walls, you see some guards at the gate. They're wearing medium armor, and carrying large martial melee weapons."
Player: "The kind that does slashing damage, or the kind that does piercing damage?"

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That sounds like a DM who thinks there is nothing but mechanics. With that literalness I can picture an encounter:

"You see five 16 HP medium sized gnolls and one 22 HP medium sized gnoll shaman. The gnoll shamman rolled a 24 for initiative so it will go first. It casts summon ghost hyena."

Vs.

"Six gnolls cackle at you, their insane laughter echoing in the cavern. One of them has crow feathers and various beads braided into it's fur. With beckoning gesture and several barked out demonic words, it conjures the ghostly form of a hyena out of the floor. The blank, transparent eyes lock on you and it opens it's jaw wide in a rictus grin."

[MENTION=25352]mrpopstar[/MENTION], with this change and the armro change, you're really moving close the 13th Age. 13th Age is a d20 OGL from a lead designer of 3.0 (Jonathan Tweet) and of 4e (Rob Heinsoo). It came out before 5e but shares a lot of both DNA but also design philosophy - play quick & streamline, don't overburden with mechanics, let's focus on the play.

13th Age has a complete SRD with everything you need to play from a rules perspective (though not the default setting), hosted ina bunch of places including here on ENworld (though some of the others are easier to navigate).

You really may want to take a look their, either for things to yoink for your 5e game, or to see if that system might not fit the experience you are looking for a little better.

This isn't putting down 5e - I love both and play both 5e and 13th Age. The great thing with our hobby right now is that there are so many different games out there so we can really find those that work for our table.

It's really similar to my simplified weapons table, though mine is even simpler. It eliminates reach and standardizes the finesse and thrown properties.

Melee Weapons
Simple Weapon Proficiency
Light 1d4
One-Handed 1d6
Two-Handed 2d4
Weapon in each hand 2d4
Martial Weapon Proficiency
Light 1d6
One-Handed 1d8
Two-Handed 2d6
Weapon in each hand 2d6

Missile Weapons
Simple Weapon Proficiency
Light 1d4 60/240
Heavy 1d6 120/480
Martial Weapon Proficiency
Light 1d6 80/320
Heavy 1d8 150/600

Weapon Proficiency – Weapon Proficiency describes the level of combat familiarity you have with weapons, and the type of proficiency you have determines how much damage you can inflict with a weapon attack. For example, if you have Simple Weapon Proficiency, a Light melee weapon will have a damage die of 1d4. If you have Martial Weapon Proficiency, that same Light melee weapon will have a damage die of 1d6. If you have no weapon proficiency, such as if you are a sorcerer or a wizard, you use the Improvised Weapons rules when you make a weapon attack.

Fighting with a Weapon in each Hand – If you are wielding a Light or One-Handed melee weapon in each hand when you make a melee attack, you may choose to strike with both weapons at once. If you have Simple Weapon Proficiency, their damage dice is 2d4. If you have Martial Weapon Proficiency, their damage dice is 2d6. You cannot benefit from this option if you have no weapon proficiency.

Fighting with Finesse – Whenever you make a melee weapon attack, you may elect to Fight with Finesse. If you do, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier for attack rolls and damage rolls with that attack, but you must reduce the total damage from the attack by one for every weapon damage die rolled. For example, if you choose to Fight with Finesse with a Martial Two-Handed Weapon, a hit with it will inflict 2d6-2 damage before modifiers. If you managed a critical hit with the same weapon, you would inflict 4d6-4 damage before modifiers.

Thrown Weapons – When you make an attack with a light melee weapon, you may choose to make a ranged weapon attack instead by throwing it. You may use either your Strength modifier or your Dexterity modifier for attack rolls and damage rolls with a thrown weapon. Thrown weapons have a range increment of 30/60.

Improvised Weapons – If you have Weapon Proficiency and are using an improvised weapon that is similar to an actual weapon, your DM may allow you to use it as if it were that weapon. For instance, your DM may allow you to use a table leg as a club or a shard of glass as a dagger. If you do not have any Weapon Proficiency, or if you attack with an object that is not similar to an actual weapon, its damage die is 1d4, it has a range increment of 0/30 if thrown or if it is a missile weapon, and you may not add your proficiency bonus to the attack roll.

Satyrn said:

A flying rapier!

Edit: Scratch that.

A chakram. It should always be a chakram.

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Y E S

Ath-kethin said:

I'm starting to think you put more thought into this idea than I did.

I really like your solution for the two-handed/two weapon attacks.

I guess another option would be to have a two-handed attack move up one die size and two-weapon fighting move down one die size (so a fighter attacking two-handed with a battleaxe would roll a d12 for damage, and a fighter wielding two short swords or whatever would roll d8s for damage), but that seems unnecessarily fiddle compared to your solution. Especially since barbarians are SOL if they wield a weapon two-handed.

So yeah, yours works better.

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I've thought long and hard about how I'd make things crazy simple. LOL Using class hit dice for weapon damage dice has made a lot of sense to me for a long time. It's two-weapon and two-handed fighting that present complications.

I think a marriage of our two ideas makes the most sense.



Martial classes could have a 1d8 weapon die (two-weapon fighting 1d6, two-handed fighting 1d12) and non-martial classes could have a 1d6 weapon die (two-weapon fighting 1d4, two-handed fighting 1d8).

Yaarel said:

The Original Posts makes each category appealing.

The reason to pick a martial melee medium weapon − longsword − is because it deals the most damage if using a shield.

The reason to pick a martial melee light small weapon − shortsword − is because it benefits from dexterity.

The reason to pick a martial melee heavy large weapon − greatsword − is because it gains reach at the cost of two hands.

This solves important mechanical problems.

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Thanks.



I was keen on the way the super simple medium weapon and super simple medium armor lined up so well as cookie-cutter vanilla. I also love that a greatsword has reach!

Yaarel said:

Personally, I would simplify all ranges to 30 feet (throw) or 300 feet (shoot). This roughly equates 10 meters and 100 meters, respectively.

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That's a really good idea.

Blue said:

[MENTION=25352]mrpopstar[/MENTION], with this change and the armro change, you're really moving close the 13th Age. 13th Age is a d20 OGL from a lead designer of 3.0 (Jonathan Tweet) and of 4e (Rob Heinsoo). It came out before 5e but shares a lot of both DNA but also design philosophy - play quick & streamline, don't overburden with mechanics, let's focus on the play.

13th Age has a complete SRD with everything you need to play from a rules perspective (though not the default setting), hosted ina bunch of places including here on ENworld (though some of the others are easier to navigate).

You really may want to take a look their, either for things to yoink for your 5e game, or to see if that system might not fit the experience you are looking for a little better.

This isn't putting down 5e - I love both and play both 5e and 13th Age. The great thing with our hobby right now is that there are so many different games out there so we can really find those that work for our table.

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Thanks for the tip! I'm only passingly familiar with 13th Age. I'll nose around a little closer next time a book crosses my path.

I'm definitely into an ascetic system. I like concrete mechanics, little fiddle, and tools I can use without needing to make too many references while dungeon building or running the game.

I think it makes the most sense to have the small ranged weapons represent thrown weapons (stone, dart, chakram) and let the medium ranged weapons absorb everything with ammunition.

I've updated the OP to reflect my thinking.

Ath-kethin said:

It's a fantasy game with a high level of abstraction built into it already, and I feel it breaks nothing to have Rogar the Ranger killing more effectively with a knife than Samael the Sorcerer can with a greataxe.

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Counterpoint: There's already a lot of abstraction built into the game, as a necessity in order to make the game playable, so there's not much benefit to adding any more abstractions than are strictly necessary.

Of course, that's entirely a matter of priorities.