Why 5E may be the last edition of D&D

Parmandur · Dec 16, 2018

Mercurius said:
Didn't Greenwood alternate between the Sword Coast and Dale Lands somewhat equally? Or I suppose the whole northern Faerun region?

He did, but the Sword Coast hits more of that classic D&D sweet spot, I wager: I also can't name off the top of my head any video games set in the Dalelands region, and the bigger novels tend to be more Sword Coast centric.

Charlaquin · Dec 16, 2018

Mercurius said:
I don't think they're wedded to the Sword Coast or even the Realms for a movie. Their target audience for a big budget Hollywood movie isn't primarily D&D players, its the public that likes big budget action fantasy movies, that has no idea what the "Forgotten Realms" are. They know that no matter what setting it takes place in, D&D players will see it, or at least care more about the quality of the film than where it is set (except for the most unreasonable anti-Realmsians, who are probably a small minority of keyboard warriors).

Their focus will be, and should be, to create a great fantasy movie and franchise that uses the great wealth of D&D material (monsters, worlds, stories, etc).

As for why WotC likes the Sword Coast, if we try to look at it without bias, it is a pretty complete region that is great for D&D.

That public doesn’t like big-budget fantasy action films though. What they like is big budget film adaptations of critically acclaimed fantasy novels they’ve always wanted to read but never got around to. Of course, no D&D movie can be that. The closest it can hope to come is probably a mid-budget vertical slice of the experience of playing a critically acclaimed game they’ve heard of but never really understood how to play.

Parmandur · Dec 16, 2018

Charlaquin said:
That public doesn’t like big-budget fantasy action films though. What they like is big budget film adaptations of critically acclaimed fantasy novels they’ve always wanted to read but never got around to. Of course, no D&D movie can be that. The closest it can hope to come is probably a mid-budget vertical slice of the experience of playing a critically acclaimed game they’ve heard of but never really understood how to play.

The source material for every big budget fantasy released so far is a famous literary work: this is largely the result of where the genre has lived historically.

However, the Pirates of the Caribbean, a big budget fantasy franchise with zero literary bprecedent (aside from buying Tim Power's plot for On Stranger Tides and then mangling it) shows that people might indeed have an appetite for such films with zero literary cred.

The advantage D&D has is that it is literally an engine for story: a D&D franchise wouldn't be limited by any literary precedent, or cut short by a lack of source material.

Heck, if they needed to, the writers room could generate story ideas by using random tables from the DMG. It would probably turn out better than the plot of most of the Transformer movies.

Aldarc · Dec 16, 2018

When reading this thread, I can't help but get the feeling that this thread should be more properly titled "Why 5E may be the last edition of D&D and the Great War will be the war that ends all wars."

S'mon · Dec 16, 2018

I expect they will do a new edition for the 50th anniversary in 2024 to ride the publicity wave, but it may have strong backwards compatibility with 5e.

schnee · Dec 16, 2018

Parmandur said:
The source material for every big budget fantasy released so far is a famous literary work: this is largely the result of where the genre has lived historically.

However, the Pirates of the Caribbean, a big budget fantasy franchise with zero literary precedent (aside from buying Tim Power's plot for On Stranger Tides and then mangling it) shows that people might indeed have an appetite for such films with zero literary cred.

Pirates of the Caribbean was one of the luckiest confluence of events in modern cinema.

The formula is 'do the same things as all the other movies in this genre that flopped, but let that one crazy actor play totally against the role in a way that only he could have pulled off, with a creative team that will actually allow him to do it, and cross your fingers'.

So, sadly, it was a well-executed gamble, not a blueprint for success.

schnee · Dec 16, 2018

FrogReaver said:
Why on earth would anyone want to watch a movie that depicts characters the way people tend to play them in actual games? I mean maybe there's comedy value there to the people that already play D&D but that's about the only appeal I see there...

Because D&D is not a literary property like Lord of the Rings with one voice guiding all the different pieces together into a unified vision of heroism.

It's a game that throws every fantasy monster that's ever existed, every character archetype that has ever appeared in any fantasy series, and every possible adventure path together at once, a literal multiverse that's more complicated than any religious vision that has ever existed, then adds randomness.

It's the opposite of a unified whole; it's a gloriously complicated mess.
It's the opposite of a groundbreaking new vision; it's entirely derivative.
For a D&D movie to make any sense as a D&D movie, it should bring what makes it unique.

That's why I think Time Bandits is the model. It has an absolutely bizarre opening that eliminates any barriers to the types of stories it can tell, sweeps the characters through a more varied set of circumstances than any other fantasy movie I've seen, and, here's the best part - it's funny.

So many fantasy movies take themselves so earnestly and seriously. What D&D brings to the table is comedy.

So, I stand by it. Make a fantasy black comedy that intentionally uses the vastness of the storytelling space to become something more than yet another derivative retread.

Charlaquin · Dec 16, 2018

schnee said:
Pirates of the Caribbean was one of the luckiest confluence of events in modern cinema.

The formula is 'do the same things as all the other movies in this genre that flopped, but let that one crazy actor play totally against the role in a way that only he could have pulled off, with a creative team that will actually allow him to do it, and cross your fingers'.

So, sadly, it was a well-executed gamble, not a blueprint for success.

They also very cleverly advertised it as if it was based on a famous work you should have been familiar with. I still remember the first time I saw the trailer for the original, I kept thinking it seemed strangely familiar, wondering if it was a remake of something I’d seen as a kid and forgotten about, or based on an obscure book or something. The way the characters in the trailer talked about Jack Sparrow made it seem like it was a name they expected me to recognize, and it worked so well that when they showed Johnny Depp, my instinctive reaction was “what a great casting choice for that character,” even though I had no idea who the heck that character actually was.

Pirates of the Carribian was a perfect storm. Perfect script, perfect casting, perfect direction, perfect advertising. That’s the kind of confluence of events that’s needed to make an original fantasy/adventure movie anywhere near that successful.

Parmandur · Dec 16, 2018

*double post*

Parmandur · Dec 16, 2018

schnee said:
Pirates of the Caribbean was one of the luckiest confluence of events in modern cinema.

The formula is 'do the same things as all the other movies in this genre that flopped, but let that one crazy actor play totally against the role in a way that only he could have pulled off, with a creative team that will actually allow him to do it, and cross your fingers'.

So, sadly, it was a well-executed gamble, not a blueprint for success.

I'd say rather that demonstrates that people want that sort of thing.

I wouldn't say that Time Bandits is the best example, though it is solid, and comedy is definitely the way to go: Guardians of the Galaxy is a solid recent example, another example of something that, while an adaptation, was not an adaptation no something most comics fans were even familiar with let alone the general public.