Worlds of Design: “Old School” in RPGs and other Games – Part 2 and 3 Rules, Pacing, Non-RPGs, and G

Worlds of Design: “Old School” in RPGs and other Games – Part 2 Rules, Pacing, and Non-RPGs For me, the difference between Old School and anything else is not in the rules, but in attitude, as described last time. Yet the rules, and the pacing, can make a big difference; parts 2 and 3.

Worlds of Design: “Old School” in RPGs and other Games – Part 2 Rules, Pacing, and Non-RPGs

For me, the difference between Old School and anything else is not in the rules, but in attitude, as described last time. Yet the rules, and the pacing, can make a big difference; parts 2 and 3.


“Old School Games have a lot of failure, more mediocre outcomes... and the brilliant stroke that suddenly feels astonishing because there is something there to contrast it with. New School Games are grey goo.” Jeffro

Last time I talked about some differences between “Old School” and newer approaches to RPGs, especially related to story. Here are some more.
[h=3]Rules[/h] The difference in “schools” is not about rules. Rules are not sacred, nor do they fit for every person. I think about rules in terms of game design. Occasionally choices designers make in games are arbitrary, one is as good as another. Some of these choices, the game designer(s) might want to change after publication, if they could. And over time, a game designer might make different choices for rules simply because tastes/trends change. For these reasons it makes no sense, to me, to adhere strictly to every rule in an RPG set.

Jeffro Johnson goes back to rules before AD&D (first edition as we tend to call it), or rules intended to substitute, such as Moldvay-B/X-Basic rules. So Jeffro says thieves must have d4 for hit points, because the rules he loves specify that.

I’m much more willing to vary from the original rules in order to make the game better (from my point of view, of course), so my thieves/rogues have d6s, can use bows (Robin Hood), and vary in other ways from the original rules. My 1e clerics can choose one of three types of sharp weapons (two-handers, one-handed swords, bow and arrow) and use those weapons as well as the blunt ones - because it’s better for the game. They can memorize twice as many spells as they can cast. And so on.

But a GM can make his game Old or New regardless of the actual rules. Some rules make it easier to tell stories (e.g. FATE). Simpler rulesets in general give the GM more freedom to tell stories, as there are fewer rules to get in the way of the story, and likely less “rules lawyering”.
[h=3]GM Role[/h] In terms of the two major conceptions of the GM’s role, the GM as rules arbiter and the GM as a sort of god, which works better for the storytelling that’s part of New School? I think rules arbiter is much less effective, as the rules can get in the way of the story. GM as rules arbiter tends to go with long rulesets (which more likely need an arbiter), and rules-heavy games get in the way of story-telling. Rules-light games ought to be better for GM storytelling. Players who don’t want the GM to control the story may prefer rules-heavy RPGs. These are tendencies, of course, not certainties, and likely there are counterexamples.
[h=3]Pacing[/h] Pacing is a big part of the difference between the two extremes. Good pacing (in novel and film terms) calls for alternating lows and highs, to make the highs that much more effective.

Old School recognizes that there will be not-very-exciting or even unpleasant/horrific adventures, to go with super-exciting and terrifically rewarding adventures. New School “evens it out”, ensuring that nothing will be unpleasant but also effectively ensuring that nothing will be terrific – because you can’t fail. “Loot drops” are boring when every monster has a loot drop. Boatloads of treasure become boring when you always get boatloads of treasure. “No one ever gets in serious trouble” is boring. In other words, the New abandons good pacing in favor of enabling “no negative consequences” or just “no losses”. You can certainly do that, but it sounds tedious to me.
[h=3]Non-RPGs, too[/h] This Old/New dichotomy can be seen clearly in board and card games as well. Such games have moved away from the traditional direct competition, and from high levels of player interaction, to parallel competitions that are usually puzzles (i.e., have always-correct solutions) rather than games (which do not have such solutions). Each player pursues his own puzzle down one of the "Multiple Paths to Victory," that is, following one of several always-correct solutions provided by the designer.

"As an Action RPG, the best thing about Torchlight II is the way loot, skill choices, and chance bubble over into a fountain of light and treasure at the whiff of a right-click, every single time, for as long as you can keep going." PC Gamer magazine, 2012

We see the difference in video games, too, but for commercial reasons those games have gone far into the New. To begin with, computers lend themselves to avatar-based "experiences" (forms of story) rather than games. Also, computer games of all types are far into reward (or at least, lack of negative consequences), having left consequence (Old School) behind some time ago. In other words, you’re rewarded for playing while not having to worry/take responsibility for the consequences of your own actions. (There are exceptions of course.) In the extreme, players will blame the game if they don’t succeed. If you make a free to play video game (a very common type now), practically speaking you MUST make it easy and positive so that players will stick around long enough to decide to provide you with some revenue via in-game micro-transactions.

(Editor's Note: We decided to add in Lew's third article, below, so it puts all of his points in context; please see my comment below).

Here are some Old/New School differences in actual gameplay.
[h=3]Strategy Over Tactics[/h] Military strategy (what you do before battle is joined) is de-emphasized in opposite-of-old-school games. Why?

  • Good strategy requires planning; tactics can become standardized, rule of thumb, easier
  • If the GM is telling a story, he or she wants players to follow the script, not devise their own ways of doing things overall (which is what strategy is all about)
Tactical games, on the other hand, are all about immediate fighting, what 4th edition D&D was built for, what many computer RPGs are built for because computers are at their best in tactics and worst in strategy.
[h=3]Hand-Holding[/h] Old School games are often about exploration, about finding/identifying the objectives. And recognizing when something about a location/opponent makes it too dangerous to take on right now.

Something like a secret door becomes a “dirty GM trick” instead of a challenge for the dungeon-delving skills of the party. “New” games are about being guided by the game (GM) to where the fight is, then fighting, then getting the loot. (You recognize the description of typical computer RPGs, especially MMO RPGs?)

In other words, the GM “holds the hands” of the players, guiding them rather than leaving them to their own devices. Every GM does this on occasion, but it’s the norm in the extreme of New School.
[h=3]What’s Important in Play?[/h] In Old School, it’s the success of the party that counts, much more than the success of the individual. This is a “wartime” attitude now quite uncommon in the USA, but common amongst the Baby Boomer wargamers who originated RPGs. In the extremes of the newer school, it’s the individual that counts (e.g. as expressed in “All About Me” RPGs), not the group. This makes a huge difference in how people play the game.
[h=3]Sport or War?[/h] I talked about this in an earlier column (RPG Combat: Sport or War?). To summarize, in war everything is fair, and stratagems – “a plan or scheme, especially one used to outwit an opponent” - are the ideal. If you get in a fair fight, you’ve screwed up: fair fights are for suckers. That style puts a premium on intelligence-gathering and on strategy. Combat as sport looks for a fair fight that the players will just barely manage to win, often as managed by the GM. Combat as War is less heroic, but it’s a lot more practical from the adventurer’s point of view. And for me, a lot more believable. If a fight is truly fair, you’re going to lose 50% of the time, in the long run. That’s not survivable.
[h=3]Nuance[/h] There are lots of “in-betweens”, of course:

  • What about a campaign where the party can suffer a total or near wipeout, but someone has left a wish with a reliable soul who can wish away the disaster. They can fail (lose), but most or all of them will survive.
  • What about the “All About Me” style I wrote about recently? Usually, there is no possibility of failure, but a GM could put a little failure into the equation if they wished.
  • What about the campaign where everyone knows their character is doomed to die, likely before reaching (in AD&D terms) 10th or 11th level? Then glory (and a glorious death) often becomes the objective.
  • What about the campaign where characters normally survive, but when someone does something egregiously stupid or foolish, the character can die?
  • You can hand-hold players to the point of combat, and still make that combat deadly.
RPGs can accommodate all kinds of tastes. But we don’t have to like every kind, do we?

This article was contributed by Lewis Pulsipher (lewpuls) as part of EN World's Columnist (ENWC) program. You can follow Lew on his web site and his Udemy course landing page. If you enjoy the daily news and articles from EN World, please consider contributing to our Patreon!
 

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Lewis Pulsipher

Lewis Pulsipher

Dragon, White Dwarf, Fiend Folio

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
So, OD&D, and basic/expert are old school. 1st and 2nd are middle school, and 3rd - 5th are NS. I feel adding that middle bridge helps define the editions better.

That is sort of assuming the conclusion that "rules density" is actually a determiner of school.

I submit that *play experience* is probably the better determiner - as is suggested by the fact that the term "old school" became popularized largely as a marketing ploy - "new rules, old school feel" - for adventures that used the new ruleset. Suggesting that the rule set isn't the major issue, that you can generate the same feeling within a wide range of game designs.
 

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Arilyn

Hero
An equally compelling, and possibly stronger, argument could be made for the opposite viewpoint. That we should use how the games were actually played, rather than intended. AD&D was rarely run 'as intended'. In 40 years, I have never run into a group that ran by the book initiative. Yet, most of the AD&D groups I have played with over the years had most of the OS characteristics I outlined in my earlier post.

Ahhh, but if old schoolers are not embracing all the rules in advanced because they are arbitrary, fiddly and overly complicated, or because they just enjoy tinkering, and they are rejecting Gygax's philosophy, then are they technically embracing the game? They are using the game, but have heavily modified it to fit personal tastes. Usually those tastes fall under what is now considered Old School, but that is not Gygax's Advanced ruleset. 2 e continued the 1e philosophy, as written, not what most players were actually doing. Later 2e loosened up character rules with kit books and became more story oriented, which was what fans were wanting. 3e grew from there. So, whether players were actually using advanced rules, as written or using them in an old school kind of way doesn't change the fact that Advanced is a middle school game. Players were using it in an old school kind of way, but it is rules dense, has lots of fiddly bits, and arbitrary rules like losing exp. from alignment change. And there were a ton of arguments over rules, which isn't supposed to really be a hallmark of OS.
 

Ahhh, but if old schoolers are not embracing all the rules in advanced because they are arbitrary, fiddly and overly complicated, or because they just enjoy tinkering, and they are rejecting Gygax's philosophy, then are they technically embracing the game? They are using the game, but have heavily modified it to fit personal tastes. Usually those tastes fall under what is now considered Old School, but that is not Gygax's Advanced ruleset. 2 e continued the 1e philosophy, as written, not what most players were actually doing. Later 2e loosened up character rules with kit books and became more story oriented, which was what fans were wanting. 3e grew from there. So, whether players were actually using advanced rules, as written or using them in an old school kind of way doesn't change the fact that Advanced is a middle school game. Players were using it in an old school kind of way, but it is rules dense, has lots of fiddly bits, and arbitrary rules like losing exp. from alignment change. And there were a ton of arguments over rules, which isn't supposed to really be a hallmark of OS.

I think arguing that 1E isn't old school gets into the same territory that arises when people argue D&D isn't a role-playing game. You can debate the specifics endlessly, but too many old school gamers play using 1E, and the impact of 1E on things like the OSR is too strong, to place it outside old school. You might say someone who plays OD&D is really old school, and someone who plays AD&D is old school, to make a distinction.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
I think arguing that 1E isn't old school gets into the same territory that arises when people argue D&D isn't a role-playing game. You can debate the specifics endlessly, but too many old school gamers play using 1E, and the impact of 1E on things like the OSR is too strong, to place it outside old school.

Practical, empirical reality rears its ugly head! :)

By way of saying, I largely agree.

You might say someone who plays OD&D is really old school, and someone who plays AD&D is old school, to make a distinction.

Then you get the really, really, really old school, who use the Chainmail rules? How many layers of true Scotsmen do we need?

I say that if it is narrowed down to a single game, you're not talking about schools anymore - you're just talking about single games.
 

I say that if it is narrowed down to a single game, you're not talking about schools anymore - you're just talking about single games.

I wouldn't disagree. I think these kinds of differences are largely just a matter of taste within old school (which is why I was saying a qualifier is better than having different categories). It is a useful question to clarify which edition you'll be using before starting a campaign though.
 

Jay Verkuilen

Grand Master of Artificial Flowers
I have a big problem likening that to "trust". It seems a bit.. revisionist, in a way.

Here's a kitchen refrigerator-freezer. It has an ice maker. Does that imply I don't "trust" you to make ice? Or does it imply I've worked out a way where you don't have to worry about making ice, and can get along with more important things in your life? If I build you a car with a crank on the front, rather than an electrical ignition, is that because I "trust" you to be able to start your own darn car? No, it is because I haven't gotten to that point of technical sophistication yet, or have some other limitation such that I can't give you the ease of use of an electrical starter motor.

I recognize trust is a very loaded word but in a sense with things like starting cars, yes it really is a matter of trust (dictionary definition linked). Starting cars back in the day of hand crank was actually quite difficult. Many people couldn't do it reliably and it was relatively slow and dangerous, leading to lower potential sales and potential liability risk. So manufacturers came up with a better way that required less from the operator. The same thing happens all over the place.

Gygax and company were visionary, but they were also new. The entire field of RPG design was new. There were a lot of things they hadn't figured out yet. When as design question arose they typically created a specialized subsystem for it, and they patched those together. This isn't because it is some brilliant design centered on trusting the GM, but because the very idea of generalized task resolution simply hadn't occurred to anyone yet.

I agree with this, definitely. "Trust the DM" wasn't a design goal, it was just necessary in the old days. Many adapted rules or elaborations were trying to improve the DM's ability.


Comprehensive rules do not express "lack of trust" in the GM. Comprehensive rules of 3e and 4e merely express a desire to somewhat unify experience across multiple GMs. Generalized rules of Fate and Cortex+ and WoD express a technical innovation that simply reduced the need for rulings. The loaded word "trust" comes from a time when people were distressed by change, and should not be trusted to accurately depict the changes and the reasons behind them, or the resulting relationships between player and GM.

I think 3E and 4E in different ways do in fact express a lack of trust in the DM. 4E in particular was trying to do exactly what the electric starter did for cars. Providing voluminous comprehensive rulings took things out of the DM's hands. This can be seen from multiple angles. It can make DM's lives easier and let them focus on story, encounter design, etc. It can make rules more transparent to player and DM. It can also make venturing off the designer's vision more difficult. Think about how "well there should be a feat for that" became the answer for "can I do XYX?"

However it also means that the answer of "the DM should make a ruling" is replaced by "the DM should know the rules and look things up when in doubt." One thing I really noticed over the 3E and 4E time was the degree to which RAW type logic held. People really went down that road in a way I didn't recall from before where, for better and worse, it was necessary to "trust the DM". This was particularly true for 4E, although that might simply be where I first noticed it.

No technology is neutral. "Making things easier for the DM and clearer for the players" also comes along with "making the DM do things the way the designer thinks is right". So for instance, the players need to trust the DM to rule fairly (but that goes back to RAW mentality), hand out rewards fairly (see all the treasure tables and advice on allocation of reward, treasure drops, etc), avoid favoritism of various sorts, present the world in a clear and consistent manner, and so on. I'm not saying these things are bad, but they do get at matters of trust, broadly speaking.
 
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Arilyn

Hero
I think arguing that 1E isn't old school gets into the same territory that arises when people argue D&D isn't a role-playing game. You can debate the specifics endlessly, but too many old school gamers play using 1E, and the impact of 1E on things like the OSR is too strong, to place it outside old school. You might say someone who plays OD&D is really old school, and someone who plays AD&D is old school, to make a distinction.

Yep, I'll agree. I am getting into nitty gritty non-practical stuff for sure.
I like to muse on things, and it's interesting to me that Advanced is embraced by a community, when the actual game had to be so heavily modified to be playable or enjoyable. And I'm not totally pulling AD&D out of old school, but wondering if we need a middle school which links things together. We have assumed OS has Advance firmly under its umbrella, and since it's played by Old schoolers, it's an obvious statement to make. But, in a non-practical, game philosophy point of view, is it truly an old school game, as written, not played? Or is it more of a hybrid? And once again, later games grew from what was written, not played. 2e was pretty much the same game when it was published.
 

Jay Verkuilen

Grand Master of Artificial Flowers
2 e continued the 1e philosophy, as written, not what most players were actually doing. Later 2e loosened up character rules with kit books and became more story oriented, which was what fans were wanting.

One reason 2E was such a minimal rewrite of 1E has to do with business issues. It's really important to remember that these kinds of design decisions are not made in a vacuum. Recall that 2E came out in 1989, which was just a few years after Gygax was kicked to the curb and new management came in. TSR had a warehouse of 1E material still, and didn't want it to all of a sudden become totally obsolete. Also, the relatively new management of TSR was very gun-shy about destroying their market by making what would be perceived as really drastic changes to the game. New editions, just like a band getting a new lead singer or a change in direction for an author, movie series, or video game series, need to be handled very delicately and they were feeling pretty insecure at that point. The designers thought of all sorts of things that eventually showed up in later editions back in the late '80s but those ideas were nixed by management. D&D also has the curse of being the market leader---it's much harder for the market leader to be innovative. We see this in many products, not just games.
 
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Hussar

Legend
I find that... largely irrelevant in its classification.

Especially when one of the major forces in the community at that time was Dragon Magazine, which contained a lot of house rule choices. The message becomes mixed - "DOn't use house rules, but here are some house rules for you to use!" And the effect... was heavy house ruling.

This is probably one of the biggest issues when talking about AD&D - AD&D was very, very schizophrenic when it came to the writing. You had Gygax saying one thing in the DMG, then presenting something completely different in modules (treasure distribution is a good example here - the DMG talks about keeping the players poor but Gygax modules were absolutely chock a block with treasure). Is the DM a neutral arbiter or is the DM antagonistic? Well, depends which chapter of the DMG you happen to read that day. :D So on and so forth.

So, it does get problematic talking about old school vs new school when old school is often all over the bloody place in terms of what the actual play expectations are.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
This is probably one of the biggest issues when talking about AD&D - AD&D was very, very schizophrenic when it came to the writing. You had Gygax saying one thing in the DMG, then presenting something completely different in modules (treasure distribution is a good example here - the DMG talks about keeping the players poor but Gygax modules were absolutely chock a block with treasure). Is the DM a neutral arbiter or is the DM antagonistic? Well, depends which chapter of the DMG you happen to read that day. :D So on and so forth.

So, it does get problematic talking about old school vs new school when old school is often all over the bloody place in terms of what the actual play expectations are.


I think it underscores the idea that "old school" is often more a state of mind than a concrete, definable thing.
 

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