Vampire's new "three-round combat" rule

Celebrim

Legend
Modos RPG provides rules for conflicts based on progress toward goals, instead of character death. While Inigo and Westley would roll against each other's physical scores (hit points), the Fellowship would roll against the progress goal of escape, but so would the goblins/orcs to stop them!

I often wish that the designers of many Indy games would pay more attention to this speech in DS9, which was ironically for me one of the series real highlights (and not the better remembered cheap copy of Babylon 5 that came later).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJ33e9BK9aU

I'm not saying Modos fails into the trap of failing to understand why a game is fun, but I've seen many Indy RPG designers seem to do so.
 

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aramis erak

Legend
Yikes. One-roll conflicts are a great idea, but probably not if it could go bada-boom bad for the PCs.

The player agreed to the stakes; it was pivotal either way...

That's an important consideration: stakes setting enhances the utility of limited rounds games.
 

MGibster

Legend
Providing a three-round rule as an option seems sort of pointless; doesn't the storyteller have the discretion to end a scene at any time? I guess the tenets of Naming Magic provide that creating a rule for it makes it more likely to happen.

Sure. But I think both the players and the GM have some reasonable expectations for when that should happen. And keep in mind that we can't assume that all parties involved are experienced at playing or running a game. What's obvious to someone who has been running Vampire games for near 25 years might not be readily obvious to someone who is new.
 

I'm not a big fan of the Three Round Rule, either. In my view, if a situation is worth getting into combat about, then it's worth playing out. If it isn't, then maybe you should look at other forms of resolution.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
In early D&D, there was a lot of fleeing from monsters. Also, if you're playing in a dungeon, there's no narrative reason for you to defeat any particular enemy, so it was OK not to win. As the game has become more forgiving and more structured (eg, with reasons for your fights), running away has lost its appeal, and now player characters are set up to win most battles. If an approach like the three-round battle allows characters to lose more fights, that seems like a good addition.

In the new Over the Edge, the GM is coached to set up conflicts where the PCs can lose and the story keeps going, which is an intentional shift from how D&D works these days.
Yeh why fight the bad guys it's not like anything but greed is the motivation
 

Riley37

First Post
vastly more useful than the majority of comments I get when someone disagrees with my ideas.

I am honored; thank you; though in all too many cases, I'm merely clearing a low bar.

all possible RPGs uniquely treated the concept of combat (or else presumably would fail in their narrative goals)

Oh. That's an ambitious scope of hypothesis. In linguistics, AFAIK, an assertion about "every known language humans have ever spoken (or signed or whistled or written)" is a possible width of scope, and "every possible human language", is a significantly larger scope.

Does parallel structure include emotional impact? That's kinda where I was going, with the bit about getting the shakes. I stand by my observation that a six-on-six SCA combat can flow somewhat like basketball, and I agree with your statement, "they aren't war". I imagine that a fight between people with swords and shields who were actually ready to kill and/or die, would move much the same as the SCA fight, because what *works* is the same - that is, whenever a parry is the optimal move in the former, it's also the optimal move in the latter, so either way, you parry.

There are TRPGs which declare intent to model fiction, rather than reality; those games succeed when they produce the sort of fight scene we see in Errol Flynn movies, not the sort of fight scene we see on security cameras. You know GURPs, so you know the idea of "cinematic" rules.

I've played "Fiasco" once at a convention. Are you familiar with it? There was no combat in the session I played, no attack rolls. Plenty of conflict, resolved other ways. I think the scenario of Pandemic might work well as a Fiasco session's story seed. I can imagine it ending with the "everyone dies" outcome; perhaps including the last dialogue, ever spoken between two humans, towards the end of the session; and I would tip my hat, to players willing to "go there." I am less confident that Fiasco would be a useful rules structure for Hoosiers: The Dribbling, insofar as that requires scenes which are mainly about who passes to whom, who intentionally fouls while setting picks, those sorts of choices; in cinematic terms, scenes in which camerawork and body language tell the story, far more than spoken dialogue; the sports equivalent of battlefield (or bar brawl) scenes.

I agree on JRRT's portrayal of shell shock, and on the high quality of his portrayal in cases such as Frodo and Eowyn. (Aragorn... well, not his first rodeo.) I don't assert the same awareness for Gygax, nor for most later TRPG authors. I have occasionally role-played aftermath; for example, the party camps overnight, the DM asks who's on watch, and I add that during the pre-dawn watch, other PCs might be woken up by my PC screaming his way out of a nightmare, then casting Heroism *just to get back to sleep*. (I've woken up suddenly, heart racing, from post-car-crash nightmares, and if post-combat is even worse...) AFAIK, that's not common among TRPGers.

One of my favorite moments, in terms of pride in what my character did: we had escaped from a captor's horrific experiment/torture lab, and in the process freed the other "subjects", and taken them to a city. My PC, a paladin with Folk Hero background, stayed at the home of the first subject we'd freed (a teenage boy), rather than at the inn. Sure enough, the boy got a nightmare... his mother held him close, but he still thrashed about in his sleep... so my PC stood at the door, back towards them, to indicate "nothing's getting through this door, to harm you, unless over my dead body". She relaxed; he, asleep, could feel her relaxing; and then they could both sleep soundly. I treasure that passage, more than any of my critical-hit smites on wight knights, though those were fun too.
 

Riley37

First Post
Yeh why fight the bad guys it's not like anything but greed is the motivation

That's not an accurate description of all early D&D. Some, but not all. Dave Arneson's Castle Blackmoor scenarios had mission objectives other than "extract the gold from the dungeon to the surface", such as finding out why the Baron's wizard had vanished into the dungeon (and whether he was going to become a threat to the castle and the Baron).
 

GMMichael

Guide of Modos
I often wish that the designers of many Indy games would pay more attention to this speech in DS9, which was ironically for me one of the series real highlights (and not the better remembered cheap copy of Babylon 5 that came later).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJ33e9BK9aU

I'm not saying Modos fails into the trap of failing to understand why a game is fun, but I've seen many Indy RPG designers seem to do so.

Huh. My takeaway from the clip was that humans are ignorant. To each his own, I guess :)

Regarding Modos RPG, if you're not saying that it falls into the trap, I will! It's supposed to be a tool for creating fun, not the source of the fun. If I were running the chase through Moria, I'd probably use simple conflicts (several unconnected rolls) and Rule Zero to keep players on-edge, instead of the extended conflict (progress-based) rules. But hey, the option is available to mechanically draw out dramatic scenes if that's what one is into.
 

MGibster

Legend
I'm not a big fan of the Three Round Rule, either. In my view, if a situation is worth getting into combat about, then it's worth playing out. If it isn't, then maybe you should look at other forms of resolution.

I find it's nearly impossible as a GM to plan for every contingency and it's been my experience that players sometimes have their characters get into fights or other situations that really aren't worth playing out. And as a GM I've sometimes failed to make every fight or situation I planned out be meaningful in the long run. We've focused on combat in this thread but the three roll guideline is also meant for non-combat situations as well.

This isn't a rule I'd like to use in every game any more than FATE's suggestion that when things get slow I just throw ninjas at it. But I do think it works well for a game like Vampire.
 

Jonathan Tweet

Adventurer
[MENTION=88987]Jonathon[/MENTION] Tweet:
Burning Wheel has a pretty nifty one-roll resolution option. If it's not worth a full combat, narrate the general approaches, and use the help mechanics, one roll, and narrate the result. Had a campaign twist "badly" due to one such. (Was a great story twist. Bad, bad, badda boombad bad for the PCs.)

Yeah, my revised Over the Edge game typically handles combats with single dice throws. The action at the table goes really fast when a fight doesn't slow things down.
 

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