D&D 1E Revised and rebalanced dragons for 1e AD&D

Celebrim

Legend
If that's what's concerning you I guess the only way to figure it is to decide on the preferred level of characters the dragon of that age category is supposed to fight and then reverse-calculating what MR is required to give the desired caster success percentage.

Judging by the XP table, at Great Wyrm stage a White/Black/Green/Blue/Red Dragon is expected to be encountered by a 10th/11th/12th/15th/16th level party while as age category 6 Adult stage its 8th/8th/9th/9th/10th.

That gives a MR success chances of 75%/90%/95%/80%/75% Great Wyrm and 63%/69%/70%/70%/65% for Adults.

If my level assumptions are correct, that means the Adult Dragons have MRs that are all fairly close to blocking 70% of spells of the expected CL, while the Great Wyrms range from blocking 75% to 95%. That's a 20% variance, and the 3-point drop from XV to XII from the Blue Great Wyrm to the Green Great Wyrm Dragon also seems off - Blue Dragon's aren't that much stronger than Green ones.

Hmm… I guess the question to ask is that a bug or feature?

There in is the question. So look at it this way. One of the cheesiest moves available in D&D is hitting a target with multiple save or die effects. It's pretty easy to show that any spell that forces a saving throw if it is spammed by low level casters at some point takes out any PC in the game. I think it was even Gygax that points out that 7 or 8 1st level casters per PC, can reliably 'charm' the entire party since no PC can reliably make 7 or 8 saving throws. So with something like 'Polymorph Other' into a jellyfish available as a 4th level spell and available on a wand, any monster intended to challenge a high level party has to be able to survive a hypothetical party of 6 M-U's or other spellcasters. The question becomes, "How many attempts to kill a monster with a save effect should be necessary to balance an M-U with an equivalent level fighter hacking and slashing through the monsters hit points?", keeping in mind that probably to maintain balance it has to be slightly larger than the time required to win with a party of 6 equivalent fighters owing to the generally greater influence of M-U's on non-combat challenges (the ability to fly, remove obstacles, control NPCs, etc.).

I actually made a first attempt at this by making a table of expected resistance for each sort of dragon. I think the number is a bit on the high side, but I haven't taken the next step of calculating how many save or die spells are required before a given dragon is expected to fail a save and lose the combat.
 

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Cleon

Legend
There in is the question. So look at it this way. One of the cheesiest moves available in D&D is hitting a target with multiple save or die effects. It's pretty easy to show that any spell that forces a saving throw if it is spammed by low level casters at some point takes out any PC in the game. I think it was even Gygax that points out that 7 or 8 1st level casters per PC, can reliably 'charm' the entire party since no PC can reliably make 7 or 8 saving throws. So with something like 'Polymorph Other' into a jellyfish available as a 4th level spell and available on a wand, any monster intended to challenge a high level party has to be able to survive a hypothetical party of 6 M-U's or other spellcasters. The question becomes, "How many attempts to kill a monster with a save effect should be necessary to balance an M-U with an equivalent level fighter hacking and slashing through the monsters hit points?", keeping in mind that probably to maintain balance it has to be slightly larger than the time required to win with a party of 6 equivalent fighters owing to the generally greater influence of M-U's on non-combat challenges (the ability to fly, remove obstacles, control NPCs, etc.).

I actually made a first attempt at this by making a table of expected resistance for each sort of dragon. I think the number is a bit on the high side, but I haven't taken the next step of calculating how many save or die spells are required before a given dragon is expected to fail a save and lose the combat.

Yes I'm aware of the spamming problem.

That's one reason I raised concerns over the 20% spread between the character level vs Great Wyrm MRs implied by the table (from 75% success for XVI Great Reds to 95% for XII Great Greens).

To have a 50% chance of one of the attackers' spells penetrating would need an average number of spells of:

75% [Great Red Wyrm]: 2.4 spells
80% [Great Blue Wyrm]: 3.1 spells
85% [Great White Wyrm]: 4.3 spells
90% [Great Black Wyrm]: 6.6 spells
95% [Great Green Wyrm]: 13.5 spells

Assuming the objective is more-or-less uniform result it looks to me that either the Red and Blue Great Wyrms have too low MRs or the Black and Green Great Wyrms have too high MRs.

Of course the saving throw is an additional complication. At least the Green, Blue & Red Great Wyrms have the same numbers on most "Save or Suck/Die" since they use the 17th+ fighter saving throws for Paralyzation/Poison/Death (base save 3) and Petrification/Polymorph (base save 4). The Red Great Wyrm has a 21st+ magic-user's base save 4 vs. Spells rather than 16th-20th MU's base save 6 of the Blue and Green Great Wyrm.

Add in the save bonuses in the Dragon revision (Great Wyrms get +6 vs Poison, Illusion, Fear and Enchantment, +3 on attacks that use their Dex adjustment and +2 vs everything else) and most of the 100% MR Great Wyrm's saves only fail on a 1.

I'm ignoring Wisdom modifiers for the above. On average a Great Red has Wis 16 for a +2, a Great Blue has Wis 15 for +1 and the others have average Wisdoms of 10-14 for no adjustment.

Incidentally, wands aren't of concern for the more powerful dragons in your proposal. Standard magic wands operate as 6th-level casters so any 1E creature with a MR of 75% or higher is immune to their effects.
 

Cleon

Legend
Comparing the damage figures I feel the the various dragons breath weapon damage ought to scale to their Hit Dice rather than age category. That'd also pay some lip service to the 1E Monster Manual version doing damage equal to its hit points.

There's quite a gap between the 2d8-1d12-1d6-1d10 vs 10d6 of an average 13 HD Great Wyrm White Dragon's claw-bite-wing-tail vs. breath weapon and the 4d10-3d8-1d12-3d6 vs 10d8 of a Great Red if only by comparing average damage vs. a single man-sized opponent (i.e. bite vs. breath of 9 vs 35 and 22 vs 45). That's a 0.26 fraction for the White Great Wyrm and a 0.49 for the Great Red, suggesting either the Great Red's breath weapon is too weak or the White Dragon's too strong by a factor of two.

The ratios for if the dragon uses all six of its bite/claw/claw/wing/wing/tail attacks (average damage 34.5 for White, 72.5 for Red) would be about the same.
 

Celebrim

Legend
Yes I'm aware of the spamming problem.

That's one reason I raised concerns over the 20% spread between the character level vs Great Wyrm MRs implied by the table (from 75% success for XVI Great Reds to 95% for XII Great Greens).

To have a 50% chance of one of the attackers' spells penetrating would need an average number of spells of:

75% [Great Red Wyrm]: 2.4 spells
80% [Great Blue Wyrm]: 3.1 spells
85% [Great White Wyrm]: 4.3 spells
90% [Great Black Wyrm]: 6.6 spells
95% [Great Green Wyrm]: 13.5 spells

Assuming the objective is more-or-less uniform result it looks to me that either the Red and Blue Great Wyrms have too low MRs or the Black and Green Great Wyrms have too high MRs.

I'm actually concerned that MR is too high across the board, but I'm not that concerned with the 20% gap, and in particular I'm really not concerned about it if expected rates of penetration increase because the 20% gap is exaggerated by how big 20% is compared to the rate of success. By that I mean a gap between 30% and 50% is pretty trivial, whereas a game between 75% and 95% is fairly huge.

The saving throws absolutely do have to be figured in when trying to figure "number of disintegrates hit by before the target dies". Thus the higher HD dragons have a number of hidden advantages in effective resistance to magic since the higher level party penetrates resistance relatively more often, but the dragon also saves relatively more often. The fact that the saves are also really good is the reason I'm concerned that the magic resistance might be too high across the board.

But the objective is not a 'more or less uniform result'. That objective first of all is a more 4e style objective of fixing the math, and aside from being in my opinion a false goal, requires a system that is not 1e. For example, the 16th level party going up against the great wyrm red, barely has any more hit points than the one going up against the great wyrm white.

Thus, I'm not terribly interested in making breath weapons any more dangerous than they are. As you note, the great white breathes every 2nd round for 35 damage, save half, to basically the whole party. The party probably has 35-85 hit points per character. The great red breathes every second round for 45 damage, save half to basically the whole party. The party six levels later probably has 40-100 hit points per character. But we can't just look at the breath weapon. The non-breath round where the white is physical has an expected damage below 35, depending on how often a 13+ HD creature can expect to hit a 10th level party. The non-breath round where the red is physical has an expected damage below 71 per round, depending on how often a 22+ HD creature can expect to hit a 16th level party. Considering I'd probably be using the 'Isle of Ape' expanded to hit tables, that's probably even slightly more often than the white can, and thus the missing damage from the red's breath weapon has been found, transferred to its bite and claws. Why you might ask? Because the higher level the party, the more likely it is that they can arrange protection against energy attacks. I could try to solve that by accounting for it and making the breath weapon big enough to overcome an expected level of protection, but then I'm back to TPKing any party that can't arrange protection from energy attacks and I'm making 3e type expectations of expected wealth (and with it availability of defenses) by level.

So what I'm interested in is less that everything scales equally, as I am in that damage inflicted over the expected combat is reasonable both from a party perspective an a per figure perspective (total damage is high enough to cause attrition to the party as a whole, but individual damage spikes aren't too high). I suspect just from a theory crafting perspective that this is plenty damage to inflict over the course of however long it takes to kill the dragon for anything less the most munchkinized kitted up post UA fighters in a tactical situation that favors them (cavalier class Paladins with Holy Avengers and girdles of giant strength against a grounded dragon, for example). Still, I'd like that verified against less hypothetical parties, hence my interest in 'play test' reports.

So the gap or ratios don't matter to me that much. I'm not trying to achieve 'balance' in the Diablo derived sense that 4e balanced things. I'm just trying to get into a better ballpark that suits high level play as it probably is within a range of DM assumptions about ability and attribute distribution. It doesn't bother me too much of that level XVI red is a huge challenge to some tables 18th level party, and a push over to some other tables 14th level party. I think in both cases its still likely to be more playable than the stat block it replaces.

Add in the save bonuses in the Dragon revision (Great Wyrms get +6 vs Poison, Illusion, Fear and Enchantment, +3 on attacks that use their Dex adjustment and +2 vs everything else) and most of the 100% MR Great Wyrm's saves only fail on a 1.

Yes. They are bloody well hard to kill and in particular hard to cheese by design. And if anything, maybe too hard to kill with magic. But I can guarantee that no one is going to claim that fighters are completely outclassed by spell-casters.

Incidentally, wands aren't of concern for the more powerful dragons in your proposal. Standard magic wands operate as 6th-level casters so any 1E creature with a MR of 75% or higher is immune to their effects.

The related thread where I talk about good challenges in 1e and why dragons aren't, I also mention that any monster intended to be a significant encounter to a high level party has to be basically immune to wands. Hence the reason I talk about monsters needing at least some sort of magic resistance, just to largely or entirely thwart the caster level of wands. Since 1e AD&D dragons have no magic resistance and limited energy resistance, wands are very effective weapons against them.
 

Celebrim

Legend
Comparing the damage figures I feel the the various dragons breath weapon damage ought to scale to their Hit Dice rather than age category. That'd also pay some lip service to the 1E Monster Manual version doing damage equal to its hit points.

The more I think about it, the more it may be the case that MR and not breath weapon damage has to depend on HD.

One of my key complaints about the 1e design was that breath weapon damage scaling with hit points didn't work because player character hit points don't truly scale with level.

But the ability to penetrate MR does scale with level. Further, higher level PC's have to face higher levels of MR precisely because the cost to the monster of failing a saving throw increases over time (this is similar to the reason PC saves must get absolutely better over time, unlike 3e broken saving throw DC design). I'm struggling to scale MR to age category because different species have such different HD across age category, and thus relatively different expectations of what level PCs are facing them. That level to challenge tie in is not as strong as in later editions, but it's still there.

But MR to age category is so darn elegant. If I scale it to HD, it's going to be a mess to calculate and produce messy results. Oh well, I guess I already introduced that problem when I nerfed white and black dragons to deal with the HD vs. MR contradiction.

UPDATE: Arrrgggh. And if we switch from age category to HD for MR, then I have to rethink how I wrote 'multi-headed' as a way to extend the challenge of a dragon out over even higher levels.
 
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Celebrim

Legend
And as long as we are talking about everything I agonize over, I've been considering rewriting the HD of the lower age categories to differentiate them slightly more.

So the first line of HD for the hatchling category might turn into something like

1+2, 1+3, 1+4, 1+5, 2+4, 2+5, 2+6
 

dave2008

Legend
Table #: Hit Dice by Metallic Dragon Species and Age

Hit Dice by Metallic Dragon Species
[/TH]
Age Category
Category Name
AC
Move Rate
Small Brass
Brass
Copper
Bronze
Silver
Gold
Huge Gold
1
Hatchling
0
12"/24" C
1+3
1+3
1+3
2+6
2+6
2+6
2+6
2
Very Young
-1
12"/24" C
2+8
3+12
3+12
4+16
4+16
4+16
5+20
3
Young
-2
12"/24" C
4+16
4+16
5+20
6+24
6+24
7+28
8+32
4
Young Adult
-3
12"/24" C
5+20
6+24
7+28
8+32
8+32
9+36
10+40
5
Adult
-4
12"/24" D
6+30
7+35
8+40
10+50
11+55
12+60
13+65
6
Old
-5
9"/24" D
8+40
9+45
10+50
12+60
13+65
14+70
16+80
7
Venerable
-6
9"/24" D
9+45
10+50
12+60
14+70
15+75
17+85
18+90
8
Ancient
-7
9"/24" E
10+60
12+72
14+84
16+96
17+102
19+114
21+126
9
Wyrm
-8
9"/24" E
12+72
14+84
16+96
18+108
20+120
22+132
24+144
10
Great Wyrm
-9
9"/24" E
13+78
15+90
17+102
20+120
22+132
24+144
26+156
[TD="colspan: 7"]

Ugh, I always hated that they gave metallics more HD than chromatics - I personally don't think that is something you need to bring back
 

dave2008

Legend
The more I think about it, the more it may be the case that MR and not breath weapon damage has to depend on HD.

One of my key complaints about the 1e design was that breath weapon damage scaling with hit points didn't work because player character hit points don't truly scale with level.

But the ability to penetrate MR does scale with level. Further, higher level PC's have to face higher levels of MR precisely because the cost to the monster of failing a saving throw increases over time (this is similar to the reason PC saves must get absolutely better over time, unlike 3e broken saving throw DC design). I'm struggling to scale MR to age category because different species have such different HD across age category, and thus relatively different expectations of what level PCs are facing them. That level to challenge tie in is not as strong as in later editions, but it's still there.

But MR to age category is so darn elegant. If I scale it to HD, it's going to be a mess to calculate and produce messy results. Oh well, I guess I already introduced that problem when I nerfed white and black dragons to deal with the HD vs. MR contradiction.

UPDATE: Arrrgggh. And if we switch from age category to HD for MR, then I have to rethink how I wrote 'multi-headed' as a way to extend the challenge of a dragon out over even higher levels.

I agree with [MENTION=57383]Cleon[/MENTION] that breath damage should probably scale differently. With HD might be to much though. I could d6/HD or d10/age or d8 +2/age (11d8 + 22 for Great Wyrms)
 


Celebrim

Legend
Ugh, I always hated that they gave metallics more HD than chromatics - I personally don't think that is something you need to bring back

To be honest, I've never found the need to include a metallic dragon in my game. As such, I don't care that much what stats metallic dragons have, as I would be surprised if I ever found a use for them. That said, I am striving as much as possible to retain the particular characteristics of 1e AD&D dragons, and that good dragons are slightly more potent than evil ones is one of those characteristics. I'm doing a bit of rewriting and reconciliation here and there, but mostly for reasons of playability. The only real changes per se I'm introducing relate to my feeling that D&D has always written up alignment issues badly and tended to make things overly anthromorphic rather than alien. So there is a bit of departure from the canonical ecology of the dragons owing to my desire to highlight that dragons are evil beyond all but the worst of men, and alien in motivation and behavior. But the stat blocks themselves are derived almost formulaically from the original MM stat blocks.

If you don't want metallic to have more HD than chromatics, it is the easiest thing in the world to fix. Simply shift over one column so as to have parity. I will note that with the multi-headed rule and similar variants, the nastiest varieties of chromatics - the multi-headed females - are a good bit worse than the even the most potent metallic.

As for the damage from breath weapons, a huge black dragon great wrym does 10d8+10 acid damage (average 55) with its breath weapon every other round. That's plenty for a 10th or 12th level party. Fifty-five is a lot of hit points in 1e AD&D, especially if not everyone is running around with 18 CON. I mean it's not unreasonable to expect a 10th level M-U to only have 25 hit points. Again, if you really need a boss dragon that is scary, you only need to give it multiple heads. The white dragon daughter of Tiamat in the example stat block breathes round one for 50d6+50 damage. Even if you are wearing a 1e ring of warmth and pass every saving throw, you are probably still dying barring some extreme cases like high level bard, high level barbarian, or 18 CON fighter. I do not in fact think I need a bigger upper end of the scale, and even if you are a party of characters where everyone has 18 CON a DM may find a suitable challenge for you amongst these options.
 

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