D&D 1E Revised and rebalanced dragons for 1e AD&D

Celebrim

Legend
It is correct to interpret it as a factor, but not the only factor.

I don't see what those other factors would be.

The reason I asked "Show me." is that it is very easy to speak abstractly about these things, but once you try to reify them into a set of rules that people are supposed to use, you realize that it's not as easy as all of that. For example, doing the work for you, I could keep the white dragon as is 1d6 per age category, and then work across the bottom so that a black great wyrm was 11d6, the green 12d6, the blue 13d6, and the red 14d6. But after doing that, I would then have to work backwards to fill in the rest of the table. At that point, the black of every size category but great wyrm would do the same as the white, and the green would only differ from the white at 5 and 10, and the blue at say 3, 6, and 10. All the dragons of size category 1 would have breath weapons that did the same damage. Would this new table satisfy you? And would this new methodology be worth creating another table to show how large the breath weapon of a particular dragon of a particular size was? Or in other words, we just got a lot less elegant. Now of course, there are other approaches. I can think of at least five other mechanical approaches right off the top of my head. But they each have their problems as well which would become clear if you started to lay them out, and it's not clear to me that the problem they'd be trying to solve is really once that needs to be solved or even really is a problem. Black dragons have larger breath weapons than greens to compensate them for only have a 'line' type breath weapon compared to the more deadly 'cloud' or 'cone' sort and to ensure that they have certain advantages that make them respected and feared as deadly creatures in their own right and not simply an inferior sort of dragon. I don't see why they need to be nerfed or why greens, blues and reds need a buff, nor do I see that by making black dragons have a particularly potent breath weapon I'm in any way harming the setting logically or doing harm to a mythic symbol or a fantasy narrative. Though, by being the only chromatic dragon with a 1d8 breath weapon that is not in a line form, I still have paid some service - sufficient I think - to the idea of reds having the most fearsome sort of breath weapon.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

dave2008

Legend
I don't see what those other factors would be.

I believe dragon size (1) should be a factor in BW damage, but I also believe balance should be a factor (2), and the particular fantasy logic of the game world (3). I think that is pretty clear from the totality of my posts. I already mentioned that I often make blue dragon's lightning breath the most deadly, that makes fantasy logic to me (factor #3 up there). Blue dragons are smaller than reds, so clearly size is not the only factor I consider.

The reason I asked "Show me." is that it is very easy to speak abstractly about these things, but once you try to reify them into a set of rules that people are supposed to use, you realize that it's not as easy as all of that.

Ahh, you assume to much; I have done it, many times. I had several posts on monster design on the old WotC forums; however, here are some drafts (not edited or final balanced) of my most recent dragons: Epic Dragons, and here: Hardcore Dragons

Now there is still work to be done on these, but one thing that I am doing that can be another balancing factor (other than damage) is having the breath weapons impose conditions. I may have gone a little overboard in some of these, but it is a start - still a lot of work to be done. FYI, there are a lot of other monsters on there as well.

I am tempted to give these 1e dragons a little BW tweak, but I don't play 1e anymore and I have so many 5e design projects going that I just can't justify the time (along with work, wife, kids, house edition, trying to actual play D&D, and of course commenting on forums).

EDIT: I forgot this one: Dragon Fire
 
Last edited:

Cleon

Legend
Well it appears this thread's been quite busy since I last visited. It appears the debate is focusing around breath weapon damage.

I agree with @Cleon that breath damage should probably scale differently. With HD might be to much though. I could d6/HD or d10/age or d8 +2/age (11d8 + 22 for Great Wyrms)

How about scaling it to age AND hit dice.

If the damage was, say, 1d6 per age category plus 1 per HD then dragons with different HD but the same ages or vica-versa will have different breath weapon damages.

Let's see what some of those numbers would look like:

Size
Small White
White
Black
Green
Blue
Red
Huge Red
Hatchling
1d6+1 (av. 4½)
1d6+1 (av. 4½)
1d6+1 (av. 4½)
1d6+1 (av. 4½)
1d6+2 (av. 5½)
1d6+2 (av. 5½)
1d6+2 (av. 5½)
Adult
5d6+5 (av. 22½)
5d6+6 (av. 23½)
5d6+7 (av. 24½)
5d6+8 (av. 25½)
5d6+10 (av. 27½)
5d6+11 (av. 28½)
5d6+12 (av. 29½)
Great Wyrm
10d6+11 (av. 46)
10d6+13 (av. 48)
10d6+15 (av. 50)
10d6+17 (av. 52)
10d6+20 (av. 55)
10d6+22 (av. 57)
10d6+24 (av. 59)

Hmm… I think I might prefer a bit more randomness than that. Maybe have the random element derive from the HD rather than the age? Let's try 1d6 per 2 hit dice (rounding up) plus 1 per age category?

Size
Small White
White
Black
Green
Blue
Red
Huge Red
Hatchling
1d6+1 (av. 4½)
1d6+1 (av. 4½)
1d6+1 (av. 4½)
1d6+1 (av. 4½)
1d6+1 (av. 4½)
1d6+1 (av. 4½)
1d6+1 (av. 4½)
Adult
3d6+5 (av. 15½)
3d6+5 (av. 15½)
4d6+5 (av. 19)
4d6+5 (av. 19)
5d6+5 (av. 22½)
5d6+5 (av. 22½)
6d6+5 (av. 26)
Great Wyrm
6d6+10 (av. 31)
7d6+10 (av. 34.5)
8d6+10 (av. 38)
9d6+10 (av. 41½)
10d6+10 (av. 45)
11d6+10 (av. 48½)
12d6+10 (av. 52)

That looks like it has potential.

I am tempted to make it ½d6 per Hit Dice so, for example, the Small White Dragon does 2d6+1d3+5 (average 14) as an Adult and 5d6+1d3+10 as a Great Wyrm (average 29.5) just so every age/HD of dragon would do somewhat different damage.

That seemed a bit too fiddly though.

Using 1d3 per Hit Dice would give similar numbers but I don't much care for using so many small dice.

Alternatively, just add a "Breath Weapons" column besides the natural attacks on the Dragon Damage table and add a note that you add the age category on top of it. So 11 HD Dragons might have, say, "breath 2d10" on the table resulting in an 11 HD Adult's breath weapon doing 2d10+5 damage and an 11 HD Great Wyrm 2d10+10.

Incidentally, I would rather the scaling was a bit smoother for the bite/claw/wing/tail damage so it didn't ramp up so steeply for the high HD dragons.

Oh, and having the tail do less damage than the claws feels off to me. I'd prefer it to be equal to or slightly less than the bite in damage-dealing capacity. Something more like the standard 2E AD&D Dragons' tail slap which did double claw damage, for example.
 

Celebrim

Legend
That looks like it has potential.

Well, at least the numbers are about right, albeit most age categories for most species have lost a few points of average and potential damage. That might be fixable.

The only real winner in your table is the green, which in the existing design does slightly less damage than the black (but over a larger area, with a more difficult save particularly for fighters).

The big loser is 'Huge' dragons of each species, which only gain at most 3.5 average damage at all age categories and in some cases will gain none. Compare with the existing system of +1 damage per die that makes huge versions of dragons of older age categories very fearsome.

My big complaint is that you have not actually expanded out the table to cover all 10 age categories. I think if you did, you'd begin to see the problem I have with your current numbers - there aren't enough increments per age category. For example, the white starts out at 1d6 and caps at 7d6, which means we are going to have three age categories out of 10 where the age of the dragon goes up and the breath weapon doesn't.

As for the rapid scaling of attack damage at high HD, it serves several purposes. First the power of D&D PC's increases at a faster than linear rate, so damage for dragons intended to face high level PCs needs to scale up to compensate. But, by design, breath weapon damage doesn't scale as quickly as HD does for the larger dragon species to prevent it reaching a point where the breath weapon attacks are die no save events for M-U's and thieves. So the physical attacks have to take up the slack. To prevent them from overwhelming PC's and because it is logically consistent for a big creature not to be able to direct all of its attacks against something rather small, the bigger dragons can't make more than one attack on a PC. But that means to be able to really threaten fighter subclasses, the bite damage needs to scale up really quickly.

You'll notice that in a much less complex way, bite damage on the RAW 1e AD&D dragons also inflates quickly and to fulfill basically the same needs. It's just that bite damage is only determined by species and not age category in the RAW.

UPDATE #2: Thinking about it some more. I do kinda see what you mean though. The chomp of the adult dragons and even to some extent the ancients just doesn't have a lot of bite to it. Rather than attempting to smooth things, I may accelerate up a little faster at first before flattening out and then accelerating up again toward the end. I'll think about.

As for the tail slap, you make a point about me being inconsistent with the 2e tail slap, and I hadn't really thought about how much damage I'd assigned to the tail in a serious manner. In 3e, tail slap damage falls from 2e to be consistent with claw damage. My main motivation in looking at physical damage was to ensure total damage output was distributed across more attacks, particularly to the claws which just didn't do nearly enough damage in 1e RAW. This smooths the damage spikes and ensures the dragon is less likely to 'whiff' a whole round. I personally I'm not really into the idea of the dragon's tail being it's second most powerful weapon. Certainly, it's not its second most iconic weapon. Why, other than precedent, do you want the tail to do more damage than the claws? And, even if I do upgrade the tail damage, would you really want me to make it twice claw damage given how much I've boosted claw damage? At twice claw damage, it would generally exceed bite damage. Do you really think tail attacks are as iconic as the bite and need that much showcase, or do you think that total physical damage is consistently too low?

On thing that is on the list of possibilities is adding a 'Tail Sweep' special attack for higher HD dragons (say starting at 14HD) that lets the dragon simultaneously attack multiple adjacent targets (the number increasing with HD). That increases tail sweep damage overall, without it overshadowing the attention of the claws.

UPDATE: Ok, I've thought a lot about it, and of course you are free to up the damage if you prefer, but I don't think in the minds of most people a dragon's tail is an iconic weapon and therefore people whose preferences aren't set by 2e probably aren't going to feel like the tail isn't doing enough damage. 3e Dragons don't even get a tail attack until they are large sized creatures, and then only a 1d8. I think for the size of creature being represented here, the damage from the tail attack is consistent with the damage you'd expect being struck with a large bludgeoning weapon. Keep in mind that tail is 1 foot long per hit die, so its not I think reasonable to make the tail strike that threatening. I mean Oonga stomping a PC only does 5d4 damage, and Oonga is colossal. The 1e AD&D precedent is only for Taimat's tail strike (or sting), and it only did 1d6 damage.

I do think I will add a Tail Sweep special attack, even if it comes at the cost of a bit of complexity. DMs that don't like complexity just can avoid the option, and it will only show up on the bigger dragons anyway.

That seemed a bit too fiddly though.

Yes. I'm reluctant to add a new table to the description, which means laying the breath weapon damage along side HD would make the most sense. But I'm also reluctant to give up the subtle differences encoded into each dragon by the existing breath weapon design:

White: Weak but good area of effect.
Black: Strong but low area of effect.
Green: Weak, but very wide area of effect and harder to save against.
Blue: Strong, great range, and difficult to resist, but low area of effect.
Red: Both strong and good area of effect.

If we lose the damage based on species and age in favor of damage based on size, some of the distinctiveness above may need to go to maintain balance and prevent it being too clunky.

A new table might be the only way to address problem with increments and distinctiveness.

Alternatively, just add a "Breath Weapons" column besides the natural attacks on the Dragon Damage table and add a note that you add the age category on top of it. So 11 HD Dragons might have, say, "breath 2d10" on the table resulting in an 11 HD Adult's breath weapon doing 2d10+5 damage and an 11 HD Great Wyrm 2d10+10.

Because cross-referencing two different tables and adding them together is really elegant? What do you think you are designing for, Role Master? :)
 
Last edited:

dave2008

Legend
Well it appears this thread's been quite busy since I last visited. It appears the debate is focusing around breath weapon damage.



How about scaling it to age AND hit dice.

If the damage was, say, 1d6 per age category plus 1 per HD then dragons with different HD but the same ages or vica-versa will have different breath weapon damages.

Let's see what some of those numbers would look like:

Size
Small White
White
Black
Green
Blue
Red
Huge Red
Hatchling
1d6+1 (av. 4½)
1d6+1 (av. 4½)
1d6+1 (av. 4½)
1d6+1 (av. 4½)
1d6+2 (av. 5½)
1d6+2 (av. 5½)
1d6+2 (av. 5½)
Adult
5d6+5 (av. 22½)
5d6+6 (av. 23½)
5d6+7 (av. 24½)
5d6+8 (av. 25½)
5d6+10 (av. 27½)
5d6+11 (av. 28½)
5d6+12 (av. 29½)
Great Wyrm
10d6+11 (av. 46)
10d6+13 (av. 48)
10d6+15 (av. 50)
10d6+17 (av. 52)
10d6+20 (av. 55)
10d6+22 (av. 57)
10d6+24 (av. 59)

Hmm… I think I might prefer a bit more randomness than that. Maybe have the random element derive from the HD rather than the age? Let's try 1d6 per 2 hit dice (rounding up) plus 1 per age category?
.

I actually prefer the first table with less randomness. I think this is just about perfect. Personally I would probably add the Huge bonus on top of the damage so:

SizeGreat Wyrm
Huge Red10d6+34 (avg. 69)
 

dave2008

Legend
As for the tail slap, you make a point about me being inconsistent with the 2e tail slap, and I hadn't really thought about how much damage I'd assigned to the tail in a serious manner. In 3e, tail slap damage falls from 2e to be consistent with claw damage. My main motivation in looking at physical damage was to ensure total damage output was distributed across more attacks, particularly to the claws which just didn't do nearly enough damage in 1e RAW. This smooths the damage spikes and ensures the dragon is less likely to 'whiff' a whole round. I personally I'm not really into the idea of the dragon's tail being it's second most powerful weapon. Certainly, it's not its second most iconic weapon. Why, other than precedent, do you want the tail to do more damage than the claws? And, even if I do upgrade the tail damage, would you really want me to make it twice claw damage given how much I've boosted claw damage? At twice claw damage, it would generally exceed bite damage. Do you really think tail attacks are as iconic as the bite and need that much showcase, or do you think that total physical damage is consistently too low?


UPDATE: Ok, I've thought a lot about it, and of course you are free to up the damage if you prefer, but I don't think in the minds of most people a dragon's tail is an iconic weapon and therefore people whose preferences aren't set by 2e probably aren't going to feel like the tail isn't doing enough damage. 3e Dragons don't even get a tail attack until they are large sized creatures, and then only a 1d8. I think for the size of creature being represented here, the damage from the tail attack is consistent with the damage you'd expect being struck with a large bludgeoning weapon. Keep in mind that tail is 1 foot long per hit die, so its not I think reasonable to make the tail strike that threatening. I mean Oonga stomping a PC only does 5d4 damage, and Oonga is colossal. The 1e AD&D precedent is only for Taimat's tail strike (or sting), and it only did 1d6 damage.

I've got to agree with [MENTION=57383]Cleon[/MENTION] here. Tail attacks should probably do more damage. Tails are extremely powerful weapons. Much smaller(and weaker) komodo dragons and crocodilians maim prey with their tail. My 4' pet iguana could really pack a wallop as well ;) And let us not forget that Smaug could split rock with his tail...", the shock of my tail a thunderbolt,..."

Keep in mind that a dragon's tail could weigh a ton or more.
 

Celebrim

Legend
I've got to agree with [MENTION=57383]Cleon[/MENTION] here. Tail attacks should probably do more damage.

I can't agree from any perspective on the matter.

First, I've done some theory crafting and the physical damage with the possible exception of the bite is very solid. The current design hits or passes the expected physical damage of the 1e RAW at age category 5 and then just keeps going, massively exceeding the 1e RAW and obviating the need for the x2 attack rate suggest by some 1e revisions.

Secondly, from the stand point of verisimilitude to setting, I still can't agree. These dragons are not as big as you are imagining them or as later editions made them. They don't hit the RAW 1e size standard until Venerable (age category 7) and even that size is smaller than the size implied by later editions. They are I think still pretty big if you were to meet one face to face, but only a few of the bigger ones are typical movie dragon size and none of them are as big as Peter "I never saw a vertical scale I didn't think needed increasing" Jackson's movie Smaug. They are much closer to Skyrim size, and maybe a little smaller. For example, an adult black is only 21' long and probably in its entirety doesn't weigh much more than a ton. It is not bigger than a really big crocodilian, and owing to body plan does not have as large or as heavy of a tail. The damage these attacks are doing are already quite sufficient to kill or maim humans. I'm quite aware that Smaug can smash rocks with his tail and so can these beasts - see the Batter special attack. The bigger dragons on this table with the giant tails you are imagining do more than sufficient damage to smash 1e soldiery into jelly.

I don't think you are really conscious of how much sheer number inflation D&D has undergone over the years. I encourage you to read some of the EnCyclopedia articles and see how number inflation has tracked across editions.

Finally, from a gameplay standpoint, these dragons are for the most part doing quite enough damage as it is. I encourage you to make a party of 6 1e AD&D characters on a 45000 XP budget per PC, 4d6 for stats drop the lowest in order, provision them with Appendix P type equipment, and run them against a 'mere' 7HD adult black dragon in a scenario where the black has emerged from a pool of water about 7" from them - possibly with surprise. I think you'll find that it's already more than challenging without increasing damage.
 
Last edited:

dave2008

Legend
First, I've done some theory crafting and the physical damage with the possible exception of the bite is very solid. The current design hits or passes the expected physical damage of the 1e RAW at age category 5 and then just keeps going, massively exceeding the 1e RAW and obviating the need for the x2 attack rate suggest by some 1e revisions.

We do love to theory craft don't we? To be clear, I am advocating increasing tail damage relative to the rest of the physical damage. If you want to keep overall damage the same, reduce it somewhere else. The tail is a very powerful weapon.


Secondly, from the stand point of verisimilitude to setting, I still can't agree. These dragons are not as big as you are imagining them or as later editions made them.

Your dragons are larger (or can be) than RAW 1e dragons. I am very aware of the size. My house is 50' long, just about the length of a 1e red. I have been to seen dinosaur skeletons and life size models of dinosaurs of about the size of these dragons in DC, Utah, Philly, and Ohio. I have always loved reptiles and frequented zoos in DC, Florida, Ohio, Arizona, and California and been within a few feet of large reptiles (komodo dragons, alligators, crocodiles, etc.). Additionally I have owned: iguanas, nile monitors, savannah monitors, basilisks, geckos, anoles, chameleons, caimans, and I caught and raised an alligator for 6 years. I am very familiar with the size and strength of draco-form reptiles. I am guessing you are not. Your GW red is 66 feet long, or 3x the size of largest salt-water croc. Thus it is in the realm of 50,000 lbs. (I don't know the density of a dragon, so you could go up or down from that depending, I would probably mimic birds and put the weight closer to 40K). That is the size of several bull elephants put together. That is incredibly powerful. Furthermore, I am intimately aware of the strength of 6-foot alligator (that is a roughly a 2 HD dragon to you correct?) and how they (and iguanas and nile monitors for that matter) use their tails. Please do not assume you know what I am imagining.

Finally, from a gameplay standpoint, these dragons are for the most part doing quite enough damage as it is.
As I said above, I am suggesting raising tail damage, not overall damage. Just trying to be helpful, but you don't really seem open to it. I like what you've done here and it has given me some ideas for the next tweak of my 5e dragons. I thank you for that, but I have no interest in running a 1e game.
 

Cleon

Legend
The big loser is 'Huge' dragons of each species, which only gain at most 3.5 average damage at all age categories and in some cases will gain none. Compare with the existing system of +1 damage per die that makes huge versions of dragons of older age categories very fearsome.

My disagreement is the Huge dragon's "fearsome" breath weapon is further unshackled from their HD/hp.

Consider the difference between a Huge Great Red (HD 24+144; BW 10d8+10) and a regular Great Red (HD 22+132; BW10d8). Its hp go up 9% and its average breath weapon damage goes up 22%. The difference isn't significant in some of the midsized dragons, i.e. an Adult Green (HD 8+40; BW 5d6) vs a Huge Adult Green (HD 10+50; BW 5d6+5) has its HD/hp go up 25% and BWd 28%.

Also, compare the 10 HD dragons in the system:

Small Adult Red: HD 10+50; BW 5d8
Adult Blue: HD 10+50; BW 5d8
Huge Adult Green: HD 10+50; BW 5d6+5
Small Old Blue: HD 10+50; BW 6d8

Old Green: HD 10+50; BW 6d6
Huge Old Black: HD 10+50; BW 6d8+6
Small Venerable Green: HD 10+50; BW 7d6

Venerable Black: HD 10+50; BW 7d8
Huge Venerable White: HD 10+50; BW 7d6+7
Small Ancient Black: HD 10+60; BW 8d8

Ancient White: HD 10+60; BW 8d6
Small Wyrm White: HD 10+60; BW 9d6

The above has dragons most of whom have the same average hit points (95, except for the top two which have 105) but breath weapon damages that go from an average of 21 (the Old Green's 6d6) to 36 (the Small Ancient Black's 8d6).

I'm also starting to disagree with giving the Green Dragon 1d6 scaled breath weapon damage since it results in a noticeable underperformance when compared to the Black and Blue on either side of it. I'm not that keen on it for the White but am more accepting of it since it's the weakest of Chromatic rather than being stuck right in the middle like the Green.

I'd prefer to use one damage scale for all of the colours (and presumably metals).

Because cross-referencing two different tables and adding them together is really elegant? What do you think you are designing for, Role Master? :)

Elegance schmelagance, I'm doing this for fun. The complexity's nothing compared to some of the ideas I came up with for 3E. It doesn't even require you to solve quadratic equations*.

*Okay, none of them involved quadratic equations. Just square roots. :p

I'm more inclined to make it something HD related without age categories mattering, either a simple (or simplish formula) like X dice per Y HD (or X dice per Y HD plus A points per B bonus HP) or use the "add breath weapon column to Dragon Attacks table" solution.

I'd rather the age categories be used to influence the saving throws instead of the size. Maybe each age above category 6 has a cumulative –1 on the save, so the PCs must save against a Great Wyrm's breath weapon at –4.
 
Last edited:

dave2008

Legend
I'm also starting to disagree with giving the Green Dragon 1d6 scaled breath weapon damage since it results in a noticeable underperformance when compared to the Black and Blue on either side of it. I'm not that keen on it for the White but am more accepting of it since it's the weakest of Chromatic rather than being stuck right in the middle like the Green.

Well, one reason [MENTION=4937]Celebrim[/MENTION] is doing that is that the cloud attack covers a greater area, so in theory it does more damage across the group. Thus, the total damage is balanced. However, I doubt that really has much of factor in play. I know if my group is planning to take on a dragon (or they encounter one) the make sure to spread out. You are unlikely to catch more than 2 in a cone or cloud. The cloud is theoretically more damage, but I don't think it is practically (to PCs anyway - henchmen is a different story)


I'm more inclined to make it something HD related without age categories mattering, either a simple (or simplish formula) like X dice per Y HD (or X dice per Y HD plus A points per B bonus HP) or use the "add breath weapon column to Dragon Attacks table" solution.

Yes, I am starting to think the same thing. It is a simple solution if you use HD, seems to solve all problems (age, size, and type). It is just a matter of determining how much damage per HD is the right amount. Heck, it could go up every other HD even.
 

Remove ads

Top