5e needs a Faiths and Avatars style book

Paul Farquhar · Jul 3, 2018

Chaosmancer said:
I've tried googling this sort of information. There is rarely enough for me to feel satisfied that I "get" the deity and the temple structures around them.

Sure, I can easily find that Corellon is the god of the elves, rules over war, magic, beauty, and singing, and once put put Gruumsh's eye in a battle. However, I've got no idea what his priests wear, are there holy days like commemorating the battle with Gruumsh? What do they do on that day? What is an appropriate offering to Corellon? What do his temples look like? Are there multiple levels of hierarchy in the temple?

All that information is stuff that gets made up, and since I grew up in the Bible Belt it ends up looking like a lot of different flavors of Christian because when I'm on the spot and thinking "What does the church look like" I think of... well Churches.

Counter Anecdote: I've never been in a 5e game that didn't include at least one cleric at some point. From that perspective they are far more popular than Fighters and Wizards.

Personally, I would really like some of this sort of information to be made available, but I wonder since it would be too massive for a book if it could be something added to DnD Beyond or something. It would just be incredibly useful to have a compilation of all these deities and detailed suggestions for how the Temple structures work.

This is where polytheism is being confused with Christianity. There is no "uniform" for a priest of Corellon, holy days depend on locality, there are no standardised rituals, and very little in the way of hierarchy. Each temple would have an autonomous high priest, and he/she would have a few acolytes. Appropriate offerings are "anything the god likes" so in the case of Corellon, singing, mostly (and all temples need cash for maintenance).

It's not a case of "making information available" since this information does not exist in the first place. Go ahead and make it up, because nothing is going to be published to contradict you.

Satyrn · Jul 3, 2018

Paul Farquhar said:
This is where polytheism is being confused with Christianity. There is no "uniform" for a priest of Corellon, holy days depend on locality, there are no standardised rituals, and very little in the way of hierarchy. Each temple would have an autonomous high priest, and he/she would have a few acolytes. Appropriate offerings are "anything the god likes" so in the case of Corellon, singing, mostly (and all temples need cash for maintenance).

Well, if your right that this is the way Correllon's priesthood works, that seems like the perfect sort content for such a book would provide: "There are no standardised rituals to celebrate Correlon, etc. . . here's a couple examples of how Correlon is worshipped in the Dales, and here's how Corellon is worshipped (and has his name spelled) . . . "

So, yeah. I think you're making the case for this book. It's just a shame for [MENTION=6670153]gyor[/MENTION] that we're not in the TSR era because then there would be a spot in the schedule for it. Because the only reason we won't see this book is the very simple "it doesn't fit in WotC's publishing strategy."

Jer · Jul 3, 2018

Satyrn said:
Well, if your right that this is the way Correllon's priesthood works, that seems like the perfect sort content for such a book would provide: "There are no standardised rituals to celebrate Correlon, etc. . . here's a couple examples of how Correlon is worshipped in the Dales, and here's how Corellon is worshipped (and has his name spelled) . . . "

So, yeah. I think you're making the case for this book. It's just a shame for [MENTION=6670153]gyor[/MENTION] that we're not in the TSR era because then there would be a spot in the schedule for it. Because the only reason we won't see this book is the very simple "it doesn't fit in WotC's publishing strategy."

I mean, that book basically already exists:

http://www.dmsguild.com/product/17569/Faiths--Avatars-2e?it=1

Actually there are 3 of them total (because FR is chock-fulla-gods):

http://www.dmsguild.com/product/17535/Powers--Pantheons-2e?it=1

http://www.dmsguild.com/product/17534/Demihuman-Deities-2e?it=1&filters=0_0_0_0_45356_0_0_0

The worldbuilding information about the religions of the Realms is all there and is just as good in 5e as it was in 2e. The timeline may have advanced but for most of the deities their religions shouldn't have changed much. What isn't there are kinds of stats for the gods that gyor was talking about, nor how the mechanics of divinity work in 5th edition, nor updates on who is a greater god vs. lesser god vs. demigod vs. whathaveyou.

Satyrn · Jul 3, 2018

Jer said:
What isn't there are kinds of stats for the gods that gyor was talking about, nor how the mechanics of divinity work in 5th edition, nor updates on who is a greater god vs. lesser god vs. demigod vs. whathaveyou.

Oh, true. The threads gone on for long enough that I've kinda lost the, uh, thread of the conversation and forgot that gyor would like that stuff, too.

Paul Farquhar · Jul 3, 2018

Satyrn said:
Well, if your right that this is the way Correllon's priesthood works, that seems like the perfect sort content for such a book would provide: "There are no standardised rituals to celebrate Correlon, etc. . . here's a couple examples of how Correlon is worshipped in the Dales, and here's how Corellon is worshipped (and has his name spelled) . . . "

So, yeah. I think you're making the case for this book. It's just a shame for @gyor that we're not in the TSR era because then there would be a spot in the schedule for it. Because the only reason we won't see this book is the very simple "it doesn't fit in WotC's publishing strategy."

You are completely missing the point. This doesn't just apply to Corellon - it applies to most of the FR gods. Hierarchies, uniforms, standardised liturgies etc are very much a feature of medieval Christianity. Polytheistic religions simply don't go in for that stuff. Add into that alignment: Chaotic gods would hate it, Neutral gods would be indifferent. Lawful gods might like it, but then you are still going to have dozens of different sects arguing over the correct shade of purple the high priest's robe should be.

Satyrn · Jul 3, 2018

Paul Farquhar said:
You are completely missing the point. This doesn't just apply to Corellon - it applies to most of the FR gods. Hierarchies, uniforms, standardised liturgies etc are very much a feature of medieval Christianity. Polytheistic religions simply don't go in for that stuff. Add into that alignment: Chaotic gods would hate it, Neutral gods would be indifferent. Lawful gods might like it, but then you are still going to have dozens of different sects arguing over the correct shade of purple the high priest's robe should be.

I got all that. I'm tellling you that all this means is that instead of the book presenting the religions as cohesive whole, it would do exactly what you're doing: telling the reader that the religions vary from sect to sect.

Edit - . . . That in covering the worship of Chaotic gods, why they'd hate it, how the religion of the neutral gods might take shape, etc.

That is, you're saying there's lots about these religions that differs from how it works in the real world. That stuff you're talking is the perfect content for the book, and yet you're presenting it as an argument against such a book.

Hussar · Jul 3, 2018

Paul Farquhar said:
This is where polytheism is being confused with Christianity. There is no "uniform" for a priest of Corellon, holy days depend on locality, there are no standardised rituals, and very little in the way of hierarchy. Each temple would have an autonomous high priest, and he/she would have a few acolytes. Appropriate offerings are "anything the god likes" so in the case of Corellon, singing, mostly (and all temples need cash for maintenance).

It's not a case of "making information available" since this information does not exist in the first place. Go ahead and make it up, because nothing is going to be published to contradict you.

Wait, what?

I live in a polytheistic country - Japan. And, I'm going to tell you right now that there ARE standardized rituals, and uniforms for priests and standardized holy days in Shinto. I'm not sure what kind of polytheism you are thinking of, but, most religions, whether mono or polytheistic, have pretty standardized rituals and holy days and easily recognizable priesthoods.

gyor · Jul 4, 2018

Hussar said:
Wait, what?

I live in a polytheistic country - Japan. And, I'm going to tell you right now that there ARE standardized rituals, and uniforms for priests and standardized holy days in Shinto. I'm not sure what kind of polytheism you are thinking of, but, most religions, whether mono or polytheistic, have pretty standardized rituals and holy days and easily recognizable priesthoods.

Wicca too depending on domination, some traditionalists for example do rituals sky clad.

Chaosmancer · Jul 5, 2018

Paul Farquhar said:
You are completely missing the point. This doesn't just apply to Corellon - it applies to most of the FR gods. Hierarchies, uniforms, standardised liturgies etc are very much a feature of medieval Christianity. Polytheistic religions simply don't go in for that stuff. Add into that alignment: Chaotic gods would hate it, Neutral gods would be indifferent. Lawful gods might like it, but then you are still going to have dozens of different sects arguing over the correct shade of purple the high priest's robe should be.

I would like to add that we are sort of missing the 500 lbs gorilla in the room.

In most DnD settings the gods are present in the people's lives, as in people can talk to them.

Sure, in ancient Rome you might have had people doing radically different things to appease Zeus. However, you are highly unlikely to find priests of "Corellon the Blood-mongerer" who say that Corellon believes in murdering everyone who isn't an elf. That isn't what that diety is about, and they would send retribution and signs against people misusing their names.

And yeah, of course they aren't going to be monolithic. Chaotic gods will have really loose rules, lawful gods might have sects who argue over whether you lead the procession with your left foot or your right foot, but since there are standard signs for all the gods, and standard portfolios for all the gods in DnD, then they are pretty heavily implying there is some connection between the different sects.

To put it more bluntly "they are not standardized" =/= "there are no rules or commonalities"

gyor · Jul 6, 2018

Hussar said:
Wait, what?

I live in a polytheistic country - Japan. And, I'm going to tell you right now that there ARE standardized rituals, and uniforms for priests and standardized holy days in Shinto. I'm not sure what kind of polytheism you are thinking of, but, most religions, whether mono or polytheistic, have pretty standardized rituals and holy days and easily recognizable priesthoods.

I'm pretty sure it's the 2 dimensional understanding of religion during the Roman Empire.