Worlds of Design: “Old School” in RPGs and other Games – Part 2 and 3 Rules, Pacing, Non-RPGs, and G

Worlds of Design: “Old School” in RPGs and other Games – Part 2 Rules, Pacing, and Non-RPGs

For me, the difference between Old School and anything else is not in the rules, but in attitude, as described last time. Yet the rules, and the pacing, can make a big difference; parts 2 and 3.


“Old School Games have a lot of failure, more mediocre outcomes... and the brilliant stroke that suddenly feels astonishing because there is something there to contrast it with. New School Games are grey goo.” Jeffro

Last time I talked about some differences between “Old School” and newer approaches to RPGs, especially related to story. Here are some more.
[h=3]Rules[/h] The difference in “schools” is not about rules. Rules are not sacred, nor do they fit for every person. I think about rules in terms of game design. Occasionally choices designers make in games are arbitrary, one is as good as another. Some of these choices, the game designer(s) might want to change after publication, if they could. And over time, a game designer might make different choices for rules simply because tastes/trends change. For these reasons it makes no sense, to me, to adhere strictly to every rule in an RPG set.

Jeffro Johnson goes back to rules before AD&D (first edition as we tend to call it), or rules intended to substitute, such as Moldvay-B/X-Basic rules. So Jeffro says thieves must have d4 for hit points, because the rules he loves specify that.

I’m much more willing to vary from the original rules in order to make the game better (from my point of view, of course), so my thieves/rogues have d6s, can use bows (Robin Hood), and vary in other ways from the original rules. My 1e clerics can choose one of three types of sharp weapons (two-handers, one-handed swords, bow and arrow) and use those weapons as well as the blunt ones - because it’s better for the game. They can memorize twice as many spells as they can cast. And so on.

But a GM can make his game Old or New regardless of the actual rules. Some rules make it easier to tell stories (e.g. FATE). Simpler rulesets in general give the GM more freedom to tell stories, as there are fewer rules to get in the way of the story, and likely less “rules lawyering”.
[h=3]GM Role[/h] In terms of the two major conceptions of the GM’s role, the GM as rules arbiter and the GM as a sort of god, which works better for the storytelling that’s part of New School? I think rules arbiter is much less effective, as the rules can get in the way of the story. GM as rules arbiter tends to go with long rulesets (which more likely need an arbiter), and rules-heavy games get in the way of story-telling. Rules-light games ought to be better for GM storytelling. Players who don’t want the GM to control the story may prefer rules-heavy RPGs. These are tendencies, of course, not certainties, and likely there are counterexamples.
[h=3]Pacing[/h] Pacing is a big part of the difference between the two extremes. Good pacing (in novel and film terms) calls for alternating lows and highs, to make the highs that much more effective.

Old School recognizes that there will be not-very-exciting or even unpleasant/horrific adventures, to go with super-exciting and terrifically rewarding adventures. New School “evens it out”, ensuring that nothing will be unpleasant but also effectively ensuring that nothing will be terrific – because you can’t fail. “Loot drops” are boring when every monster has a loot drop. Boatloads of treasure become boring when you always get boatloads of treasure. “No one ever gets in serious trouble” is boring. In other words, the New abandons good pacing in favor of enabling “no negative consequences” or just “no losses”. You can certainly do that, but it sounds tedious to me.
[h=3]Non-RPGs, too[/h] This Old/New dichotomy can be seen clearly in board and card games as well. Such games have moved away from the traditional direct competition, and from high levels of player interaction, to parallel competitions that are usually puzzles (i.e., have always-correct solutions) rather than games (which do not have such solutions). Each player pursues his own puzzle down one of the "Multiple Paths to Victory," that is, following one of several always-correct solutions provided by the designer.

"As an Action RPG, the best thing about Torchlight II is the way loot, skill choices, and chance bubble over into a fountain of light and treasure at the whiff of a right-click, every single time, for as long as you can keep going." PC Gamer magazine, 2012

We see the difference in video games, too, but for commercial reasons those games have gone far into the New. To begin with, computers lend themselves to avatar-based "experiences" (forms of story) rather than games. Also, computer games of all types are far into reward (or at least, lack of negative consequences), having left consequence (Old School) behind some time ago. In other words, you’re rewarded for playing while not having to worry/take responsibility for the consequences of your own actions. (There are exceptions of course.) In the extreme, players will blame the game if they don’t succeed. If you make a free to play video game (a very common type now), practically speaking you MUST make it easy and positive so that players will stick around long enough to decide to provide you with some revenue via in-game micro-transactions.

(Editor's Note: We decided to add in Lew's third article, below, so it puts all of his points in context; please see my comment below).

Here are some Old/New School differences in actual gameplay.
[h=3]Strategy Over Tactics[/h] Military strategy (what you do before battle is joined) is de-emphasized in opposite-of-old-school games. Why?

  • Good strategy requires planning; tactics can become standardized, rule of thumb, easier
  • If the GM is telling a story, he or she wants players to follow the script, not devise their own ways of doing things overall (which is what strategy is all about)
Tactical games, on the other hand, are all about immediate fighting, what 4th edition D&D was built for, what many computer RPGs are built for because computers are at their best in tactics and worst in strategy.
[h=3]Hand-Holding[/h] Old School games are often about exploration, about finding/identifying the objectives. And recognizing when something about a location/opponent makes it too dangerous to take on right now.

Something like a secret door becomes a “dirty GM trick” instead of a challenge for the dungeon-delving skills of the party. “New” games are about being guided by the game (GM) to where the fight is, then fighting, then getting the loot. (You recognize the description of typical computer RPGs, especially MMO RPGs?)

In other words, the GM “holds the hands” of the players, guiding them rather than leaving them to their own devices. Every GM does this on occasion, but it’s the norm in the extreme of New School.
[h=3]What’s Important in Play?[/h] In Old School, it’s the success of the party that counts, much more than the success of the individual. This is a “wartime” attitude now quite uncommon in the USA, but common amongst the Baby Boomer wargamers who originated RPGs. In the extremes of the newer school, it’s the individual that counts (e.g. as expressed in “All About Me” RPGs), not the group. This makes a huge difference in how people play the game.
[h=3]Sport or War?[/h] I talked about this in an earlier column (RPG Combat: Sport or War?). To summarize, in war everything is fair, and stratagems – “a plan or scheme, especially one used to outwit an opponent” - are the ideal. If you get in a fair fight, you’ve screwed up: fair fights are for suckers. That style puts a premium on intelligence-gathering and on strategy. Combat as sport looks for a fair fight that the players will just barely manage to win, often as managed by the GM. Combat as War is less heroic, but it’s a lot more practical from the adventurer’s point of view. And for me, a lot more believable. If a fight is truly fair, you’re going to lose 50% of the time, in the long run. That’s not survivable.
[h=3]Nuance[/h] There are lots of “in-betweens”, of course:

  • What about a campaign where the party can suffer a total or near wipeout, but someone has left a wish with a reliable soul who can wish away the disaster. They can fail (lose), but most or all of them will survive.
  • What about the “All About Me” style I wrote about recently? Usually, there is no possibility of failure, but a GM could put a little failure into the equation if they wished.
  • What about the campaign where everyone knows their character is doomed to die, likely before reaching (in AD&D terms) 10th or 11th level? Then glory (and a glorious death) often becomes the objective.
  • What about the campaign where characters normally survive, but when someone does something egregiously stupid or foolish, the character can die?
  • You can hand-hold players to the point of combat, and still make that combat deadly.
RPGs can accommodate all kinds of tastes. But we don’t have to like every kind, do we?

This article was contributed by Lewis Pulsipher (lewpuls) as part of EN World's Columnist (ENWC) program. You can follow Lew on his web site and his Udemy course landing page. If you enjoy the daily news and articles from EN World, please consider contributing to our Patreon!
 

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Lewis Pulsipher

Lewis Pulsipher

Dragon, White Dwarf, Fiend Folio

Hussar

Legend
Honestly, I think the biggest shift from what I think of as Old School games and New School games has a lot less to do with pacing or treasure expectations or that sort of stuff. That's all largely table expectation stuff and will vary far more from table to table than from game to game. I've played "old school" games where treasure was plentiful and death was relatively rare (mostly due to aforesaid treasure allowing copious raising and resurrection) such as playing the old GDQ series of modules for AD&D. I've also played new school games where there was no treasure and death was frequent and permanent. That's not really the difference so much as simply a symptom.

No, to me the difference between OS and NS games is the expectation that the DM/GM will play amateur games designer far, far more often in an OS game than in a NS game. OS games are characterized by rules absence. Not rules light, no. Simply rules absence. The earlier example of climbing the wall is a perfect one. In an OS game, outside of the thief, how do you adjudicate any PC climbing a wall? Using the rules of AD&D, tell me what I should roll for my fighter in chain mail to climb up a wall. Can I do it at all?

In an OS game, every table will have a different answer. Maybe it's a Strength check (roll low). Maybe it's some sort of saving throw (Petrification seems to be the go to one for this sort of thing). Maybe it's a percentile check where you multiply the character level times the average of Strength and Dex. Who knows? The rules don't tell you. The game expects that the DM will whip out his "Amateur Game Designer" hat on the spot and create a new rule for this situation. If the situation comes up again, the DM might rule the same way, or maybe not, depends on whim. Again, the rules are silent on the issue.

New School games aren't like that though. Either they go the 3e D&D route of trying to have a rule for everything, or they go with one or two very basic standing rules (Savage World's Rule of 4 - any score over 4 succeeds whatever it is you're trying to do) that we broadly apply to situations that aren't covered by the rules.

To me, this is the biggest difference between the two schools. Everything flows from this basic, fundamental point - does the system expect the person in the rules arbiter position (DM/GM/Throat Warbler Mangrove/Etc) to be able to create fair and interesting mechanics on the spot or not. Everything else is just variations on that theme.
 

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Honestly, I think the biggest shift from what I think of as Old School games and New School games has a lot less to do with pacing or treasure expectations or that sort of stuff. That's all largely table expectation stuff and will vary far more from table to table than from game to game. I've played "old school" games where treasure was plentiful and death was relatively rare (mostly due to aforesaid treasure allowing copious raising and resurrection) such as playing the old GDQ series of modules for AD&D. I've also played new school games where there was no treasure and death was frequent and permanent. That's not really the difference so much as simply a symptom.

No, to me the difference between OS and NS games is the expectation that the DM/GM will play amateur games designer far, far more often in an OS game than in a NS game. OS games are characterized by rules absence. Not rules light, no. Simply rules absence. The earlier example of climbing the wall is a perfect one. In an OS game, outside of the thief, how do you adjudicate any PC climbing a wall? Using the rules of AD&D, tell me what I should roll for my fighter in chain mail to climb up a wall. Can I do it at all?

In an OS game, every table will have a different answer. Maybe it's a Strength check (roll low). Maybe it's some sort of saving throw (Petrification seems to be the go to one for this sort of thing). Maybe it's a percentile check where you multiply the character level times the average of Strength and Dex. Who knows? The rules don't tell you. The game expects that the DM will whip out his "Amateur Game Designer" hat on the spot and create a new rule for this situation. If the situation comes up again, the DM might rule the same way, or maybe not, depends on whim. Again, the rules are silent on the issue.

New School games aren't like that though. Either they go the 3e D&D route of trying to have a rule for everything, or they go with one or two very basic standing rules (Savage World's Rule of 4 - any score over 4 succeeds whatever it is you're trying to do) that we broadly apply to situations that aren't covered by the rules.

To me, this is the biggest difference between the two schools. Everything flows from this basic, fundamental point - does the system expect the person in the rules arbiter position (DM/GM/Throat Warbler Mangrove/Etc) to be able to create fair and interesting mechanics on the spot or not. Everything else is just variations on that theme.

I would quibble a bit with the angle, and the language a bit, but I do think this gets at a pretty important distinction, which is old school emphasis on rulings over rules (I wouldn't describe it as inventing mechanics whole cloth for each situation, I would describe it as drawing on what seems the most appropriate mechanic available and applying creativity and logic to its application). The benefit to this approach is it really does open up the 'it is possible to try anything' mindset (which for me was one of the most exciting aspects of RPGs when I first experienced them).

That said, I think this distinctions isn't always about rules heaviness or lightness. AD&D still had quite a few mechanics (especially if you include optional rulebooks). Pretty sure by second edition, there are clear rules for the climbing situation (and many other similar type rules). But the rules are often buried in spots that make them a bit hard to find. And 2E was loaded with optional rules. There are also plenty of non-D&D old school games that have robust mechanics for a wide variety of situations. You can run a system like 3E, which has rules for all kinds of situations, in an old school manner.
 

Hussar

Legend
I would quibble a bit with the angle, and the language a bit, but I do think this gets at a pretty important distinction, which is old school emphasis on rulings over rules (I wouldn't describe it as inventing mechanics whole cloth for each situation, I would describe it as drawing on what seems the most appropriate mechanic available and applying creativity and logic to its application). The benefit to this approach is it really does open up the 'it is possible to try anything' mindset (which for me was one of the most exciting aspects of RPGs when I first experienced them).

That said, I think this distinctions isn't always about rules heaviness or lightness. AD&D still had quite a few mechanics (especially if you include optional rulebooks). Pretty sure by second edition, there are clear rules for the climbing situation (and many other similar type rules). But the rules are often buried in spots that make them a bit hard to find. And 2E was loaded with optional rules. There are also plenty of non-D&D old school games that have robust mechanics for a wide variety of situations. You can run a system like 3E, which has rules for all kinds of situations, in an old school manner.

Whereas, my experience is almost completely opposite. Because so many people are really, really bad at calculating odds, DM's, again IME (and I'm including myself in here) tend to rig the game to the point where attempting anything that wasn't specifically mechanically prescribed, was mostly pointless. And players learned that very quickly. So, you never bothered trying to have your fighter climb a wall. It was almost assuredly going to fail anyway, so, either get the thief to do it or get a spell/magic item.

I find that in true rules light games - where you have mechanics that are broadly applicable, players are far more willing to try things because they know that their chances of success are good enough that the risk/reward balance is positive enough.

As far as "drawing on what seems the most appropriate mechanic available" goes, well, fair enough I suppose. I'm not really sure what a save vs petrification had to do with climbing a wall or jumping over a pit, but, hey, I guess it's appropriate :uhoh:. AFAIC, most of the time is was just variations on the "Roll High" school of game mechanics where the numbers don't really matter so long as the roll is "good enough". But, be that as it may, the point still stands. It wasn't "rulings not rules" back in the day because there were no rules at all. The rules were entirely absent. So, out comes the Amateur Game Designer hat and create a rule that the table is happy enough with.

Which works fantastic when the DM is really on the ball. But, when the DM wasn't? Whoo boy that was some unbelievably bad gaming. But, in any case, none of it had anything to do with things like "story" or "plot" or anything like that. That's not what differentiates Old School and New School. What truly sets the schools apart is how much is the DM/GM present in the mechanics of that table?
 

Maybe you missed some of the stuff that was coming out at the end of 2e? Between the Skills and Powers and Combat and Tactics expansions 3e is not such a big step from 2e as you may imagine.
Skills and Power is no more representative of 2E than The Book of Nine Swords is representative of 3E. One of the points that tends to get lost in any edition war, is that the 2E one person played is not necessarily the same 2E that anyone else played; and the same is true of 3E or 4E. (With 4E, in particular, a lot of people gave it an honest try for the first year, and never experienced any of the later changes).

But still, your point stands, that 2000 is probably not the best dividing line. Personally, I draw the line around 1996.
 

Skills and Power is no more representative of 2E than The Book of Nine Swords is representative of 3E. One of the points that tends to get lost in any edition war, is that the 2E one person played is not necessarily the same 2E that anyone else played; and the same is true of 3E or 4E. (With 4E, in particular, a lot of people gave it an honest try for the first year, and never experienced any of the later changes).

But still, your point stands, that 2000 is probably not the best dividing line. Personally, I draw the line around 1996.

I remember Skills and Powers being very divisive. Some people loved it but most of the people I played with didn't allow it. I didn't use skills and powers, so when 3E came out, the jump seemed bigger than it might otherwise have. I held out changing to the new edition for about a month or two, then made the shift. I definitely struggled with 3E at first, and found it hard to run for the Ravenloft setting in particular. But I played it regularly until a little after 4E came out. Still went back to it for certain campaigns. I found 3E worked really well for the kind of wuxia campaign I liked to run. But it was also during 3E that I started getting into old school stuff again (going back to the 1E DMG and some of the earlier modules because I wasn't really enjoying the 3E approach to adventures---published or the stuff that was in Dungeon at the time).
 

Whereas, my experience is almost completely opposite. Because so many people are really, really bad at calculating odds, DM's, again IME (and I'm including myself in here) tend to rig the game to the point where attempting anything that wasn't specifically mechanically prescribed, was mostly pointless. And players learned that very quickly. So, you never bothered trying to have your fighter climb a wall. It was almost assuredly going to fail anyway, so, either get the thief to do it or get a spell/magic item.

I find that in true rules light games - where you have mechanics that are broadly applicable, players are far more willing to try things because they know that their chances of success are good enough that the risk/reward balance is positive enough.

As far as "drawing on what seems the most appropriate mechanic available" goes, well, fair enough I suppose. I'm not really sure what a save vs petrification had to do with climbing a wall or jumping over a pit, but, hey, I guess it's appropriate :uhoh:. AFAIC, most of the time is was just variations on the "Roll High" school of game mechanics where the numbers don't really matter so long as the roll is "good enough". But, be that as it may, the point still stands. It wasn't "rulings not rules" back in the day because there were no rules at all. The rules were entirely absent. So, out comes the Amateur Game Designer hat and create a rule that the table is happy enough with.

Which works fantastic when the DM is really on the ball. But, when the DM wasn't? Whoo boy that was some unbelievably bad gaming. But, in any case, none of it had anything to do with things like "story" or "plot" or anything like that. That's not what differentiates Old School and New School. What truly sets the schools apart is how much is the DM/GM present in the mechanics of that table?

I think our experiences on this front are quite different. But that is honestly a topic for another thread. We characterize it differently, but we seem to agree this is a key dividing line between the old and new school.
 

Shasarak

Banned
Banned
Skills and Power is no more representative of 2E than The Book of Nine Swords is representative of 3E. One of the points that tends to get lost in any edition war, is that the 2E one person played is not necessarily the same 2E that anyone else played; and the same is true of 3E or 4E. (With 4E, in particular, a lot of people gave it an honest try for the first year, and never experienced any of the later changes).

But still, your point stands, that 2000 is probably not the best dividing line. Personally, I draw the line around 1996.

Exactly. If you asked 10 ADnD players about what rules they used then you would probably get 11 different answers. I mean one big example is the people that claim that DnD is actually a miniature war game and yet none of the groups that I gamed with used miniatures and the only guys that did use miniatures played Warhammer.

The other problems is that because RPGs are such a new development they have not developed a commonly accepted terminology yet. So we really dont know (or rather dont agree) what the meaning of 'is' is.
 

Lylandra

Adventurer
Thinking about the article again, I guess it would be fair to call these entries a column or an opinion, but not an article per se.

Most of us agree that many of the the statements in this entry were rather poor researched and one-sided. The tone wasn't the best as well, but guess what? That's fine for a column. These can be polarizing and all about one person's opinion on a given topic. For an article, I expect at least a bit amount of research on the topic and a certain degree of objectivity.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Thinking about the article again, I guess it would be fair to call these entries a column or an opinion, but not an article per se.

Most of us agree that many of the the statements in this entry were rather poor researched and one-sided. The tone wasn't the best as well, but guess what? That's fine for a column. These can be polarizing and all about one person's opinion on a given topic. For an article, I expect at least a bit amount of research on the topic and a certain degree of objectivity.
It would have gotten a warning as a post here, so I don't understand how it's okay as a column/article here.
 

Aldarc

Legend
Old School RPGs (OSRPGs) and New School RPGs (NSRPGs) do not seem like meaningful categories. Even if we speak more broadly in terms of "how (RP) games were" versus "how (RP) games are now," regardless of how we define those respective parameters, we are looking at a tremendous degree of diversity in the market. There are even some critical differences, IMO, between "OS games" versus "OSR games." And I would be somewhat more interested in comparing these two sets of games than OS to "NSRPGs," which in this article seems to include a wide berth of game systems, such as Fate, 4-5e D&D, Savage Worlds, and probably Powered by the Apocalypse.

Why OS vs. OSR?
Unless I am mistaken - and I would welcome clarification here - Old School did not seem to exist as a concept until the Old School Revival/Renaissance. And much like the actual Renaissance, I suspect that OSR created a false narrative of the current/preceding generation of games in favor of establishing a false narrative of "reviving" something that was not necessarily lost. But I also think that if we compare OS and OSR games we can probably have a better understanding of the contemporaneous influences on OS-inspired games as well as the play that OSR attempts to emulate. Because even if the OSR movement claims to represent a revival, a restoration, a renaissance, or some other highly romanticized 'r word' of Old School games, their design and writing will likely betray some of those nebulously-defined "NSRPG" influences, some consciously and others not.

For example, both Beyond the Wall and Other Adventures and Black Hack place themselves under the OSR umbrella. But both games also have decidedly contemporary influences, and consciously so even. BtWaOA, for example, incorporates PbtA-influenced playbooks and the character creation process entails the players filling out a village, its inhabitants, and their connections to other PCs. Black Hack incorporates some 4-5e inspired mechanics such as advantage/disadvantage while also seemingly streamlining the OS experience through a more unified mechanic: i.e., attacks, defence, saving throws, skills, and such are collectively turned into roll-under attribute system.

So through identifying some of the "novelties" and/or similarities that OSR brings to OS, we can potentially gain a greater sense for both OSRPG and NSRPG more concretely than comparing OSRPG directly to a more nebulous range of NSRPG systems.
 
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