Chaotic Good Is The Most Popular Alignment!

Morrus · Jun 14, 2019

Charlaquin said:
Hence why I said it’s the alignment least likely for the DM to allow.

i misspoke. I meant to say Chaotic Neutral.

coolAlias · Jun 14, 2019

Hussar said:
I gotta agree with @Morrus on the whole CN thing. Thing is, most people, really, are lawful by D&D standards. They follow rules, they work (reasonably well) in groups every day and generally aren't out there to stir things up. Funny thing is, I think most players choose CN because they don't want to allow the DM to have any hooks into their behavior. It's really a shame that 5e ejected "unaligned" because, frankly, I think that's what most folks mean when they say CN.

Sorry, but, if your chaotic neutral character is 100% responsible and trustworthy, he's not actually CN.

I disagree that most people are lawful - I'd argue that people are mostly neutral.

How many people will follow a law that significantly inconveniences them if they're certain they can get away with breaking it? Seems like most everybody drives over the speed limit and fails to pay sales tax on out-of-state purchases unless forced to. A lawful person would uphold the law even when inconvenient for themselves.

That said, alignments in D&D are a spectrum - people can lean lawful without "being" Lawful. Maybe they're only 60/100 lawful, where 0 is absolutely chaotic and 100 is absolutely lawful.

Charlaquin · Jun 14, 2019

Morrus said:
i misspoke. I meant to say Chaotic Neutral.

Ahh, I see. Yeah, that’s probably the most likely non-evil alignment to get banned, but I think DMs disallowing CN is still fairly uncommon.

Charlaquin · Jun 14, 2019

Hussar said:
I gotta agree with @Morrus on the whole CN thing. Thing is, most people, really, are lawful by D&D standards. They follow rules, they work (reasonably well) in groups every day and generally aren't out there to stir things up. Funny thing is, I think most players choose CN because they don't want to allow the DM to have any hooks into their behavior. It's really a shame that 5e ejected "unaligned" because, frankly, I think that's what most folks mean when they say CN.

Sorry, but, if your chaotic neutral character is 100% responsible and trustworthy, he's not actually CN.

It depends on what definition of the alignments you’re working with. In the way I prefer to use alignment, I agree with you on this 100%. But it is worth noting that the way I prefer to use alignment involves defining the alignments differently than the 5e PHB defines them. According to the 5e PHB, Chaotic Neutral means “[a character] who follows their whims, holding their personal freedom above all else,” and there’s really nothing about that definition that precludes being responsible and trustworthy. I don’t particularly like that definition of Chaotic Neutral, but I think it’s safe to assume it’s the one most 5e players are working with.

Immortal Sun · Jun 14, 2019

Duh. The alignment system sucks and "Chaotic good" is the closest to "I'm a normal person who generally does good but doesn't always follow the rules."

Can we have Unaligned back now?

Whizbang Dustyboots · Jun 14, 2019

Yeah, in my experience, most people agree that other people should be obeying laws and they agree to obey laws they think are reasonable. That doesn't make them chaotic.

Hussar · Jun 14, 2019

Charlaquin said:
It depends on what definition of the alignments you’re working with. In the way I prefer to use alignment, I agree with you on this 100%. But it is worth noting that the way I prefer to use alignment involves defining the alignments differently than the 5e PHB defines them. According to the 5e PHB, Chaotic Neutral means “[a character] who follows their whims, holding their personal freedom above all else,” and there’s really nothing about that definition that precludes being responsible and trustworthy. I don’t particularly like that definition of Chaotic Neutral, but I think it’s safe to assume it’s the one most 5e players are working with.

Well, the whole "follows their whims" right there makes them untrustworthy. Particularly when combined with putting their personal freedom above all else. Basically becomes, "you can't tell me what to do, I'll do whatever I feel like, which, right now, means that I'm going to sleep on watch because, well, I'm tired and you can't tell me what to do."

If you follow your whims, that makes you untrustworthy.

Immortal Sun · Jun 14, 2019

Hussar said:
Well, the whole "follows their whims" right there makes them untrustworthy. Particularly when combined with putting their personal freedom above all else. Basically becomes, "you can't tell me what to do, I'll do whatever I feel like, which, right now, means that I'm going to sleep on watch because, well, I'm tired and you can't tell me what to do."

If you follow your whims, that makes you untrustworthy.

No, breaking the trust of others makes you untrustworthy.

Because if my whim is to do what I agreed to, then I'm still following my whims, AND I'm being trustworthy.

Because realistically being X doesn't mean you're X all the time. Trustworthy people can break promises and follow their whims. Whimsical people can uphold agreements and follow the law.

Also, *cough* that last line really seemed to change in tone from "We're having a talk about fantastical alignment systems in a game where alignment is often presupposed to be a fundamental element of reality like time and space." to a rather accusatory commentary on real people.

Koloth · Jun 14, 2019

I have always found the whole alignment system suspect considering the basic scenario in the game is:

Step 1: Meet at tavern
While in process of getting drunk, mystically acquire a mission(rumor, shadowy gal hires you, undercover castle guard needs help, etc)
Load up on weapons of mass destruction from the local armor/magic shop
Travel cross country while killing most things/people you encounter
Arrive at keep/castle/dungeon
Perform break and enter
Kill most of the inhabitants while looting the place
Find a little time to actually do the mission you were hired to do
Travel cross country back to origin place, again killing most things encountered
Deliver mission objective to person who hired you
Convert un-needed loot to cash at local loot conversion establishment
Go to step 1

When both Lawful Good and Chaotic Evil are equally comfortable doing the basic mission, alignments are rather fluid.

coolAlias · Jun 14, 2019

Heh, yeah, it doesn't help that the fundamental basis of progress in D&D is centered on killing things. While it makes for a fun game, it can be hard to reconcile that with a Good or Lawful alignment.

To further muddy the waters, alignments started as being much more concrete / tied to the cosmos, having real effects in the world (some may have strong feelings about CN from this era), and have become sort of general guidelines on stereotypical behavior that may or may not have any bearing on how one actually plays their character.

I much prefer how it is now, perhaps because the people I've played with have never really made much of a fuss about alignment other than some 2e AD&D games involving paladins or evil characters (both of which can be fun if everyone is on board).