Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?

pemerton

Legend
It's not a qualification
"Especially" is an adverb used to introduce a qualification. Eg "I like people, especially cheerful people."

The definition of literature is all things written. Period.
Maxperson, I don't know what your field of endeavour is, nor your education and/or professional training.

But what you are saying here, assuming that it is sincere, suggests a lack of familiarity with how English dictionaries work, and also how English essay writing works.

An English dictionary is (or at least aspires to be) an account of the establshed usages of English speakers. A serious scholarly dictionary (like the OED) for this reason contains illustrations of usage, with dages, that illustrate the development of these patterns of usage and thus justify the dictionary-makers assertions about them.

When the dictionary says that literature means the As, and especially the As that are also Bs, it is telling us that the word "literature" is used to mean A, but also, and especially, is used to mean the As that are Bs. There would be no point to including that second element of the definition if, in fact, there was no such distinctive and typical pattern of usage. In this case, one doesn't need to refer to a dictionary to make the point - it's not an obsecure one. If someone says, for instance, that s/he studies literature, I think most of us would assume that cookbooks and railway guides and stereo installation instructions are not on the syllabus. (Contrast if she said that she studies communication, in which case those things might well be candidate objects of study.)

Another feature of dictionaries is that they play a normative as well as a descriptive role: that is, people look to them for guidance on how they should use words. But of course this guidance is nothing more than that - if it was, then usage would never change! And a standard feature of essay writing in Engllish is the coining of neologisms, or the use of common place words with nuanced or narrowed meaning, whether expressly stated by the author or implied in some fashion. For a well-known example of the former, consider the final (I think, from memory) chapter of Bertrand Russell's well-known book The Problems of Philosophy, where he explains why much of what is ordinary called knowledge is, according to him, not worthy of that label - rather, he calls it "probable opinion". Russell - who won a Nobel Prize for Literature - is not ignorant of the use or meaning of the English word "knowledge". His distinct approach to use of it is in service of his phisophical position.

Providing an example of implied narrowing or nuancing is something I'll leave to another post if anyone is interested, as it takes more time to set one out, and the examples that are occurring to me at the present may be a bit controversial from the point of view of board rules. But I think it's a pretty well-known phenomon.

Antyway, the upshot is that when I ask is roleplaying a literary endeavour, and make it clear by my follow-up discussion in the OP that I'm focusing on whether it is wordcraftp or something else that is the principal device in RPGing for establishing the key aesthetic properties and provoking emotional responses, it's completely pointless to respond by saying that there is a usage of "literary" according to which the answer is trivially "yes". Because that's very obviously not how I was using the word "literary" in the phrase "literary endeavour". (And that's before we even get to the point that it is the whole phrase, and not just its adjecitival component, that is central to the position I'm articulating in this thread.)
 

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Sadras

Legend
I think they are equal in value.

I'm not necessarily convinced of that claim.

However, unlike @pemerton I do think literary endeavour exists within RPGs. Certainly when one looks at CR, the word usage by Mercer is important in order to immerse the players (and viewers) into the fictional world and the unravelling story.
Many of us attempt to do same in our own games.

All you have to do is look at Stephen Colbert's eyes as Mercer was wordsmithing away.
It is important, whether you're writing a book for the enjoyment of millions or whether you're forming a tale together at the table for the enjoyment of a handful. They're both literary endeavours.
 
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Aldarc

Legend
I'm not necessarily convinced of that claim.

However, unlike @pemerton I do think literary endeavour exists within RPGs. Certainly when one looks at CR, the word usage by Mercer is important in order to immerse the players (and viewers) into the fictional world and the unravelling story.
Many of us attempt to do same in our own games.

All you have to do is look at Stephen Colbert's eyes as Mercer was wordsmithing away.
It is important, whether you're writing a book for the enjoyment of millions or whether you're forming a tale together at the table for the enjoyment of a handful. They're both literary endeavours.
It seems like they are narrative endeavors or storytelling endeavors. I don't necessarily think that the word "literary" applies when we are talking more about story-craft or fiction-craft than the crafting of literature, even if we apply the technical sense of pertaining to written words.
 

Hussar

Legend
It seems like they are narrative endeavors or storytelling endeavors. I don't necessarily think that the word "literary" applies when we are talking more about story-craft or fiction-craft than the crafting of literature, even if we apply the technical sense of pertaining to written words.

See, this? This right here? This is the goalposts on roller skates I'm talking about. It's not "literary", it's "narrative". It's not "wordcraft" it's "story-craft or fiction-craft". Good grief, you folks complain about shifting definitions?
[MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] is pretty clear that literary refers to "wordcraft". Which is also pretty clear what [MENTION=6688277]Sadras[/MENTION] means.

I'm getting the feeling that the meaning of "literary" = stuff I don't like or care about. If it is stuff I care about, then it obviously can't be literary because I don't care about literary. :uhoh:
 

Aldarc

Legend
See, this? This right here? This is the goalposts on roller skates I'm talking about. It's not "literary", it's "narrative". It's not "wordcraft" it's "story-craft or fiction-craft". Good grief, you folks complain about shifting definitions?
See what, Hussar? It may have escaped your otherwise astute notice, Hussar, but I am not pemerton. I have my own opinions, and I am not obligated to be beholden to pemerton's. I personally don't think that we should equate "literary" with "narrative" or "story."

I'm getting the feeling that the meaning of "literary" = stuff I don't like or care about. If it is stuff I care about, then it obviously can't be literary because I don't care about literary. :uhoh:
Oh? I'm getting the sense that you aren't listening to me at all. But when my positions in this thread haven't changed and you accuse me of shifting the goalposts, then this gets a big aggravating and your behavior comes across as dickish.
 

Sadras

Legend
It seems like they are narrative endeavors or storytelling endeavors. I don't necessarily think that the word "literary" applies when we are talking more about story-craft or fiction-craft than the crafting of literature, even if we apply the technical sense of pertaining to written words.

Ok you are making a distinction between story/narrative and literary. As a layman, I have to ask, is the crafting of a good story not part of crafting great literature? What are the differences?

I can also understand @Hussar's frustration. See below.

Pemerton said:
I thought it might be a discussion about whether or not wordcraft is a principal or essential means of evoking emotional responses in a RPG. The point of my OP is to deny such a claim. On the other hand, I believe that @Hussar affirms such a claim, as does @Imaro. I'm frankly not sure what @Maxperson thinks about it.

@Aldarc, the bolded section (emphasis mine) could be utilised in any of the crafts you mentioned above. @pemerton here IS equating wordcraft with literary endeavours as he refers back to his OP, thereby introducing a new term and opening up the door to more rebuttle and confusion (hence the accusation of goal post shifts).

For me wordcraft is important when attempting to convey certain images and framing particular scenarios to players to evoke certain emotions as reflected on my post using CR/Mercer as an example.
The result being wordcrafting is important in RPGs, therefore literary endeavours are important to RPGs.
 
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For me wordcraft is important when attempting to convey certain images and framing particular scenarios to players to evoke certain emotions as reflected on my post using CR/Mercer as an example.
The result being wordcrafting is important in RPGs, therefore literary endeavours are important to RPGs.

And I think this is fine. If you find the game to be a literary endeavor in this way, and if you are a GM in the style of Matt Mercer, then that is what you should do. I am not saying it can't be these things. All I am saying is it does not have to be these things. Matt Mercer's style of GMing isn't the only way, or the best way: it is just one way to it. I personally don't like running games the way he does and I don't like utilizing the kinds of descriptions he uses. I just don't value woodcraft because I am speaking everyday plain English to my players and not trying to affect a style. I am talking in my natural voice. These are two very different approaches to play.
 

All you have to do is look at Stephen Colbert's eyes as Mercer was wordsmithing away.
It is important, whether you're writing a book for the enjoyment of millions or whether you're forming a tale together at the table for the enjoyment of a handful. They're both literary endeavours.

But this is a public performance of D&D involving a late night host. I hope understand most of that banter you see on late night TV is planned and rehearsed. There is a performative aspect to a game involving Colbert and Mercer that isn't going to be present at most tables. Colbert's expression may have been sincere, but he also might have been putting on a show. And either way, these are both people with improv and acting backgrounds, so naturally this is going to be a style of play they both find engaging. Again, the point is, this isn't what everyone is looking for in play. If it works for you, I say go for it. But it isn't what I want (either as a GM or player).
 

Aldarc

Legend
Ok you are making a distinction between story/narrative and literary. As a layman, I have to ask, is the crafting of a good story not part of crafting great literature? What are the differences?
Crafting a good story can be part of crafting great literature, but crafting a good story is also part of crafting good cinematic film or crafting a good televised serial or crafting a good video game. These latter things are necessarily regarded as "literary" with any conventional usage. I would also add that just because you have a good story does not mean that you have good literature, and just because you have good wordcraft does not mean that you have good literature or a good story. "Good literature" is generally about the sum of its parts rather than its particular elements though what constitutes good literature is culturally and historically subjective. And typically every generation challenges what prior generations regarded as good literature.

Film, for example, leans heavily on audio-visual storytelling issues that do not apply to literary works. Films, much like books, may enhance their storytelling through how it cuts between scenes, but there is obviously a critical difference with film: it can do so audio-visually. It does not have to rely on its wordcraft. And there are a wide variety of techniques that film can use for transitioning between scenes that books cannot readily achieve. And without any wordcraft at all, films can evoke tremendous emotional responses: see the first 5 minutes of the Pixar film Up. Another good example is when we see Luke Skywalker on Tatooine in A New Hope looking out at the horizon at sunset with John Williams using the music including Luke's leit motif in the background. We feel his frustration, his hopes, and his wanderlust. Given how much screen time hangs on this one wordless moment so early in the film, we understand that Luke will probably be our focus in the film and that the film will probably delve into Luke's growth as a character. His eyes are drawn outward to space, and his journey will likewise take him to where his eyes gaze. This is one of the wonderous things about how film is able to construct story in unique ways.

Likewise, just because are attempting to craft a good story for TTRPGs, I don't think that this makes TTRPGs a "literary endeavor." IMHO, I believe that we are mostly discussing something more of a storytelling/narrative endeavor, which may or may not lead to immersive play. So I think that it is important to recognize that crafting a good story for TTRPGs will not involve the same processes as crafting a good story for literature. This is because the process of TTRPG-craft will face issues that are unique to TTRPGs. For example, how you frame a scene in a TTRPG will differ from how you would frame a scene film or a book. Premade text is often provided for TTRPG modules and adventures. But you can also ignore or modify that text entirely. Texts are not required for "wordcraft." Most of the play will not be scripted, but conversational (as per John Harper). You don't even need good "wordcraft" to evoke a powerful emotional response. Sometimes it can be as simple as "you see your sister there." That may be all that you need to trigger an emotional response. You may also use maps, grids, and minis. This shapes the framing of the story. As do the rules of the game system. They will impact how the story will be told because these are the mechanics that players and game master will likely be engaging concurrently with the story. A lot of story tension even hangs on the randomness of dice!

@Aldarc, the bolded section (emphasis mine) could be utilised in any of the crafts you mentioned above. @pemerton here IS equating wordcraft with literary endeavours as he refers back to his OP.

Now this is where confusion lies as wordcrafting (for me) is important in when attempting to convey certain images and framing particular scenarios to players to evoke certain emotions as reflected on my post using CR/Mercer as an example.
The result being wordcrafting is important in RPGs, therefore literary endeavours are important to RPGs.
Again, please be aware that I am not pemerton and that I do not necessarily share his broader sense of "literary."
 
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