Variant weapon table

jaelis said:

Either is reasonable. Would you rather have a martial handaxe and simple hatchet, or just a simple handaxe? Or put a 1d6 handaxe in simple without thrown, and a throwing axe in martial, lots of ways to do it!


Thought about moving the dagger to martial and having a simple 1d4 knife without thrown. But that seemed like more effort than it was worth. The handaxe/hatchet might be the same.


I guess that one thing I like about putting the handaxe in martial is that it makes the dwarf weapon proficiency a bit more meaningful.

Click to expand...

Moving Thrown to martial is an intriguing idea, but I'm also not sure the value gained is worth the effort.

I there is a point where you hit good enough without expending more effort for less gains in gameplay. You very close to that, if not there already.

Edit: Also Throwing Axes and Knives seems like something the peasantry would get up to anyway which kind of lends itself to simple weapons.

To the OP: I like the ideas you propose!

I think that the +1 bonuses for picks and flails are particularly fun and flavorful. How about, for fun, expanding a bit? (See below.)

The reaping ability is cool, but could it be made a bit more significant? Then, for balance, perhaps add something for others?

Here are some ideas (nothing exhaustive, just brainstorming)

Axes (including the Halberd?) get Massive Crit: on a crit, 1d4 (one-handed) or 1d6 (two-handed) bonus damage
Hammers and Mauls get Dazing: on a crit or on natural 1, target grants advantage until end of round. Natural 1 still deals no damage.
Swords get Defensive: on your turn, you can assign a -1 penalty to attack and damage rolls for a +1 bonus to AC, until your next turn (stackable with Defender weapon's bonuses/penalties if the Defender weapon is a sword)

Also, why does the flail need to be used with two hands to give the bonus vs Shields? It seems to me like the weapon is equally efficient vs shields whether you use it one-handed or two-handed. I would probably say the same thing regarding morningstars and maces vs armor, but in the latter cases I can see an argument that the strenght you apply can help breach the armor. However, with the flail it's all about the ball swinging around the shield to crush the arm, which doesn't really require more strength, does it? Well obviously, any hit dealt with more strength is likely to be more efficient, but that's already represented by the strength bonus to attack and damage rolls. Would you consider giving the flail a straight-up +1 vs shields no matter if the weapon is used one or two handed? I'd even go so far as to suggest +1 vs armor for picks, morningstar and mace, notwithstanding whether it is used two-handed or not.

Thoughts?

Additional ideas:

Reach weapons gain Control: any creature that enters your reach must spend an additional 5 foot of movement.

All ranged weapons gain Release: if you have no enemy within 5 feet of you at start or round and your ranged weapon is loaded and ready, you gain +5 to your initiative rolls. This is stackable with other bonuses such as alert - although combat can be imaged different ways, one of those is that ranged attacks are released first (such as in Middle Earth Role Playing Game).

[MENTION=6802553]BookBarbarian[/MENTION] #33 Axes are common Tools, but an axe specialized as a weapon is much lighter and has a much slimmer Profile. To wield an axe is in no means something for the untrained since you essentially got to keep up edge alignment to be effective. Same goes partially for warhammers. Maces and clubs and quarterstaffs are much simpler to use in that aspect.

I would say someone with a forester or carpenter Background could treat an axe a simple weapon but not the common peasant who chops up some firewood with a woodcutter axe from time to time.

The rapier remains on the table and unchanged...
So really nothing else you are trying to fix here matters. There is no reason to ever use the other weapons so long as you can go God Mode by ignoring the Strength stat all together and pouring everything into Dexterity and being better at absolutely everything.

TheHobgoblin said:

The rapier remains on the table and unchanged...
So really nothing else you are trying to fix here matters. There is no reason to ever use the other weapons so long as you can go God Mode by ignoring the Strength stat all together and pouring everything into Dexterity and being better at absolutely everything.

Click to expand...

I haven't found this to be a problem in practice, but if it is for your table, there are a few possible solutions:
- eliminate the rapier
- apply a -1 attack penalty vs heavy armor
- reduce the damage to 1d6 vs heavy armor
- require that the rapier can only be used when your other hand is empty
- change the rules so that finesse weapons let you apply Dex to attacks, but still Str to damage

Perhaps one of those would work for you!

Skyscraper said:

To the OP: I like the ideas you propose!

I think that the +1 bonuses for picks and flails are particularly fun and flavorful. How about, for fun, expanding a bit? (See below.)

Click to expand...

Note that I've changed a few things up, see the latest here:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...weapon-table&p=7436254&viewfull=1#post7436254

The reaping ability is cool, but could it be made a bit more significant? Then, for balance, perhaps add something for others?

Click to expand...

I was aiming for a pretty small bonus, I don't want to shift the overall power level of things.

Here are some ideas (nothing exhaustive, just brainstorming)

Axes (including the Halberd?) get Massive Crit: on a crit, 1d4 (one-handed) or 1d6 (two-handed) bonus damage
Hammers and Mauls get Dazing: on a crit or on natural 1, target grants advantage until end of round. Natural 1 still deals no damage.
Swords get Defensive: on your turn, you can assign a -1 penalty to attack and damage rolls for a +1 bonus to AC, until your next turn (stackable with Defender weapon's bonuses/penalties if the Defender weapon is a sword)

Click to expand...

So these would all be pretty significant. If you think that melee fighters are overall too weak in the game, then maybe you want something like this, but I didn't really come at it from that point of view.

Also, why does the flail need to be used with two hands to give the bonus vs Shields? It seems to me like the weapon is equally efficient vs shields whether you use it one-handed or two-handed. I would probably say the same thing regarding morningstars and maces vs armor, but in the latter cases I can see an argument that the strenght you apply can help breach the armor. However, with the flail it's all about the ball swinging around the shield to crush the arm, which doesn't really require more strength, does it? Well obviously, any hit dealt with more strength is likely to be more efficient, but that's already represented by the strength bonus to attack and damage rolls. Would you consider giving the flail a straight-up +1 vs shields no matter if the weapon is used one or two handed? I'd even go so far as to suggest +1 vs armor for picks, morningstar and mace, notwithstanding whether it is used two-handed or not.

Thoughts?

Click to expand...

Again, because I'm after small adjustments. My original take on versatile was an effort to differentiate the weapons in a noticeable way, without adding significant mechanical complexity. That's why the bonuses only showed up in the unusual situation of using the weapons in two hands. But I like my new feat idea better for this.

Again, giving the weapons straight bonuses would definitely up their power level, and also force the more complex rules onto anyone using the table. I was trying to avoid both of those.

Coroc said:

@BookBarbarian #33 Axes are common Tools, but an axe specialized as a weapon is much lighter and has a much slimmer Profile. To wield an axe is in no means something for the untrained since you essentially got to keep up edge alignment to be effective. Same goes partially for warhammers. Maces and clubs and quarterstaffs are much simpler to use in that aspect.

I would say someone with a forester or carpenter Background could treat an axe a simple weapon but not the common peasant who chops up some firewood with a woodcutter axe from time to time.

Click to expand...

But doesn't that same logic hold true for every simple weapon?

Using a dagger in combat is certainly more difficult that using a knife as a tool. Same for a light hammer, same for a sickle. Same for a Staff.

Edit: To me it seems that the simple weapons are derived from tools and also possibly represent what could have been carried around by a peasant in the middle ages without drawing too much attention from the gentry.

Martial weapons are more obviously battlefield, dueling, or gladiatorial armaments.

[MENTION=6802553]BookBarbarian[/MENTION] a sickle as a weapon, yes, a dagger / knife stabbing in hammer grip?
I bet you can teach a monkey to do that. Use of a staff is almost intuitive, very easy even for totally untrained persons. A hammer? yea you need strength to use it as a weapon I guess.

The whole simple / martial weapon is a bit of a constructed categorizing.
Watch a monk use a Bo IRL nothing simple about this anymore that is "martial art"

Coroc said:

@BookBarbarian a sickle as a weapon, yes, a dagger / knife stabbing in hammer grip?
I bet you can teach a monkey to do that.

Click to expand...

There is a lot more to dagger fighting that that. Specifically could you teach a monkey to accurately throw a dagger well enough to be considered proficient in it?

Coroc said:

Use of a staff is almost intuitive, very easy even for totally untrained persons. A hammer? yea you need strength to use it as a weapon I guess.

Click to expand...

You need strength to use any weapon in 5e unless it has finesse. I thought this was a discussion on proficiency not ability score.

Coroc said:

The whole simple / martial weapon is a bit of a constructed categorizing.

Click to expand...

Certainly. It is a game after all. Which is why I'm discussing what I think was the logic behind the Simple/Martial construct and how the weapons on the table best fit into those two categories.

Coroc said:

Watch a monk use a Bo IRL nothing simple about this anymore that is "martial art"

Click to expand...

Which the 5e designers have decided to gate behind the Monk's Martial arts ability, along with using every simple weapon in a more distinctive and damaging way then any other class.

Based on that design decision I feel safe in not letting eastern martial arts users influence what I think belongs on which side of the simple/martial divide.