D&D 5E Consensus about two-weapon fighting?

FrogReaver · Jul 11, 2019

Gladius Legis said:
This is wrong.

Greatsword + Hunter's Mark, 3 rounds, STR 18, Extra Attack:
3*(6d6+8) = 87

1d8 main weapon + 1d6 off weapon, 3 rounds, Hunter's Mark tag round 1, dual-wielding 2 and 3, STR 18, Extra Attack:
(2d8+2d6+8) + 2*(2d8+4d6+8) = 86

Even after three rounds, the greatsword is a point ahead of the dual-wielder with a d8 main. The dual-wielder pulls ahead in Round 4, which is the last round of many combats, likely mopping up.

Additionally he's assuming that you never killed that enemy and needed to move the hex/hunter's mark to the next enemy. If that happens then you never catch up.

Remathilis · Jul 11, 2019

Gladius Legis said:
I'm not even trying to fix a mathematical balance. I just want my character to use rapier/dagger or longsword/shortsword, TWO REAL-WORLD FIGHTING STYLES, without having to take a feat (i.e. OPTIONAL RULE) for it. Which for whatever reason is making you rage hard.

This.

To me, one point of damage is barely a consideration since 5e is designed for neither PVP nor PerfectBalance, and the worst that comes off it is that a monster dies one round sooner, if even.

In all honesty, I think the bigger problem is greatswords doing 2d6 compared to the other heavy weapons doing 1d12. I think 2d6 skews the math and makes it superior to all other nonreach weapons.

DND_Reborn · Jul 11, 2019

@FrogReaver, in your table about the 11th level Paladin/Fighter (post #171, top of page 18) how did you figure the damage from the Battle Master dice?

It looks like you are doing the 15 d10's average, which is 82.5, but what maneuver are you gaining this from. I don't play the archetype and have never seen one in action, either, so I am honestly curious. I thought maybe with Lunging attack, but if that is the case you would have to multiply the expected damage (82.5) times the chance to hit (0.65), which would reduce it to 53.625 hp of damage?

Now, I am not trying to rekindle the flames of controversy but am more interested in a civil discussion.

One of our players was curious about the Oathbreaker Paladin as an option (our DM approved) and I noticed at 7th level with Aura of Hate a modest +2 CHA bonus per attack would put this archetype over the Fighter in damage per round. In fact, only twice would it fall behind (6th, when Fighter boosts STR to 20, and 20th, when the 4th attack kicks in).

So, what about the Battle Master's damage? And thoughts on the Oathbreaker?

FrogReaver · Jul 11, 2019

Nearly every battlemaster manuever allows you to hit first then use the dice - just like the paladin’s divine smite. That was one of your “incorrect mechanics” I referred to regarding your post that I attempted a humorous reply to.

dnd4vr said:
@FrogReaver, in your table about the 11th level Paladin/Fighter (post #171, top of page 18) how did you figure the damage from the Battle Master dice?

It looks like you are doing the 15 d10's average, which is 82.5, but what maneuver are you gaining this from. I don't play the archetype and have never seen one in action, either, so I am honestly curious. I thought maybe with Lunging attack, but if that is the case you would have to multiply the expected damage (82.5) times the chance to hit (0.65), which would reduce it to 53.625 hp of damage?

Now, I am not trying to rekindle the flames of controversy but am more interested in a civil discussion. One of our players was curious about the Oathbreaker Paladin as an option (our DM approved) and I noticed at 7th level with Aura of Hate a modest +2 CHA bonus per attack would put this archetype over the Fighter in damage per round. In fact, only twice would it fall behind (6th, when Fighter boosts STR to 20, and 20th, when the 4th attack kicks in).

So, what about the Battle Master's damage? And thoughts on the Oathbreaker?

DND_Reborn · Jul 11, 2019

FrogReaver said:
Nearly every battlemaster manuever allows you to hit first then use the dice - just like the paladin’s divine smite. That was one of your “incorrect mechanics” I referred to regarding your post that I attempted a humorous reply to.

Really, because I have been looking them over and for the ones that add damage, such as Lunging attack, you use the dice and if you hit you add damage. Either hit or miss, the superiority dice is spent. That was why I was asking, specifically, what maneuver you are using to add this damage. None that I skimmed through add it after the "hit", only if the attack does hit (but like I said, the die is spent either way).

Nevermind, I read some of the others like Disarming do add damage in addition to the other feature.

Cap'n Kobold · Jul 11, 2019

dnd4vr said:
Really, because I have been looking them over and for the ones that add damage, such as Lunging attack, you use the dice and if you hit you add damage. Either hit or miss, the superiority dice is spent. That was why I was asking, specifically, what maneuver you are using to add this damage. None that I skimmed through add it after the "hit", only if the attack does hit (but like I said, the die is spent either way).

Edit: First sentence has already been addressed in the original quoted post. Leaving in to avoid confusion - and because I don't know how to do strikethrough font on these forums.Out of what? Six maneuvers that add the superiority dice to damage, Lunging attack is the only one where you have to choose to use it before you hit.

I'm not saying that its pointless, but its really unrepresentative if you're comparing damage capabilities in the same breath as paladin smites and skews the data one way a bit. Particularly if you're not applying any method to represent the maneuver's main benefit.
(Precision attack is fairly solidly the best damage per dice for a battlemaster, but the maths is harder than simply adding the total dice average to the character's daily damage output.)

DND_Reborn · Jul 12, 2019

Cap'n Kobold said:
Out of what? Six maneuvers that add the superiority dice to damage, Lunging attack is the only one where you have to choose to use it before you hit.

I'm not saying that its pointless, but its really unrepresentative if you're comparing damage capabilities in the same breath as paladin smites and skews the data one way a bit. Particularly if you're not applying any method to represent the maneuver's main benefit.
(Precision attack is fairly solidly the best damage per dice for a battlemaster, but the maths is harder than simply adding the total dice average to the character's daily damage output.)

Just to reiterate, since you might not have read my posts in the thread and I want to give you the benefit of the doubt, I have NEVER seen a battle master played nor looked into the class much because, quite frankly, I vastly dislike the concept of "superiority dice" and their use. Because of this, I was not familiar with the maneuvers they have really, and only skimmed over precision attack because it was mentioned in a post. I read lunging attack by chance and saw the damage was dealt after the hit, but the superiority die was spent whether there was a hit or miss.

What I don't understand at this point, is why you quoted me, but removed the point where I wrote:

"Nevermind, I read some of the others like Disarming do add damage in addition to the other feature."

Also I asked FrogReaver why he calculated the maneuver damage and realized my oversight (unfortunately blatant as it was... I bow my head in shame

).

As to the rest of your post, precision attack isn't difficult to quantify in the comparison FrogReaver and I have been doing and tomorrow I can do it if you want. I have some time in the morning before work so I will probably even give the battle master another read through and see if it might be worth the hassle of the superiority dice concept.

FrogReaver · Jul 12, 2019

dnd4vr said:
Just to reiterate, since you might not have read my posts in the thread and I want to give you the benefit of the doubt, I have NEVER seen a battle master played nor looked into the class much because, quite frankly, I vastly dislike the concept of "superiority dice" and their use. Because of this, I was not familiar with the maneuvers they have really, and only skimmed over precision attack because it was mentioned in a post. I read lunging attack by chance and saw the damage was dealt after the hit, but the superiority die was spent whether there was a hit or miss.

What I don't understand at this point, is why you quoted me, but removed the point where I wrote:

"Nevermind, I read some of the others like Disarming do add damage in addition to the other feature."

Also I asked FrogReaver why he calculated the maneuver damage and realized my oversight (unfortunately blatant as it was... I bow my head in shame ).

As to the rest of your post, precision attack isn't difficult to quantify in the comparison FrogReaver and I have been doing and tomorrow I can do it if you want. I have some time in the morning before work so I will probably even give the battle master another read through and see if it might be worth the hassle of the superiority dice concept.

Well at least you've corrected course on 1 of the 4 blunders from that one post. Now just 3 more to go!

BTW: You'd be surprised at the difficulties that arise from calculating precision attack. It's not a trivial problem. [MENTION=6966824]Esker[/MENTION] may be able to help more there.

Cap'n Kobold · Jul 12, 2019

My bad. I generally open threads in new windows and it can be a while before I get round to putting my thoughts in order and finish writing a post.

DND_Reborn · Jul 12, 2019

FrogReaver said:
Well at least you've corrected course on 1 of the 4 blunders from that one post. Now just 3 more to go!

BTW: You'd be surprised at the difficulties that arise from calculating precision attack. It's not a trivial problem. @Esker may be able to help more there.

First, LOL.

While I freely admitted I wasn't familiar with battle master (even stated so in the post you reference), if you want to contest that those other points were blunders, it is time for you to back that up!

Because while interpretations may differ, I stand by those.

As for precision attack, with a d10 at level 11 using your earlier table, you are turning 15 misses (usually) into hits. The impact from that is adding 171.5 expected damage, over double what other maneuvers that simply increase damage would do.

In a perfect world, it would be the full 172.5 points of damage, but since not all 15 dice will always result in 15 of the 21 expected misses becoming its, it suffers slightly. About 93.5% of the time, all 15 dice will add enough bonuses to make 15 misses into hits. About 4.9% of the time, one will fail; about 1.2% of the time, two will fail; roughly 0.25%, three will fail; after that, the numbers (say 0.04%) get so small they are inconsequential due to rounding. The expected difference in loss damage boost maybe 1 hp less damage than the best case (all 15 turning misses into hits).

Any one who wants to is free to check the math.