Tuesday May 29 Happy Fun Hour with Mike Mearls - more psionics!

I immediately think of how Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster both work. The base Fighter and Rogue chasses don’t have spellcasting (nor do most of the subclasses), and there’s no Fighter spell list or Rogue spell list. Yet those two subclasses gain a Spellcasting ability and draw from another spell list (in this case, the Wizard’s). Mearls seems to be describing subclasses that gain a “Spellcasting” ability that draws from an out-of-class spell list, in this case being a Psionics spell list.

I put Spellcasting in quotes because I imagine that Psionics could easily be like Pact Magic, an ability that operates *like* Spellcasting but is separate from it terms of slots and levels. Note that, even though Warlocks don’t “cast spells” through the same mechanism that other classes do (and thus interoperable their slots when multiclassing), they use the same mechanics and terms when defining spell lists and spell levels.

I see Psionics being done easily in this sort of way, without having to create new complicated terms and mechanics — treating Psionics as a magic mechanic on the same lines as Pact Magic and building psionic subclasses similar to how the non-Wizard subclasses which draw from that spell list operate (the only difference being the lack of a “Psionic” class that houses that list, the way the Wizard class houses the list from which Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster draw from).

Paul Farquhar said:

Would bardic magical secrets be able to pick up psionic spells?

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I don’t see a problem with that. Firstly, the mind-affecting nature of bardic magic (distinct from other casters) touches upon the psionic. Secondly, any psionic spell taken means a cost of another spell from a different list not taken (so there’s not a power difference, just more variety in bardic options).

PointOfIsnpiration said:

Jester, I only half agree. I half agree because Ki powers are still a thing. Ki powers are lot more closer to how I imagine psionics than random fireballs and fingers of death. And with spells like Zephyr Strike, I can easily see something like FLurry of Blows being a spell too--yet its not.

Why?

Because it feels more enjoyable and fulfilling to play a monk as someone who is unique to their class as opposed to playing another caster (be it 1/3rd, 1/2th, or full). You're right that being different doesn't make them fun. That doesn't mean that being different isn't apart of the fun.

And your why reinvent the wheel argument is already disproven by 5E class design. Why invent the wheel with superiority dice? Why reinvent the wheel with Smite and Lay on Hands? These are all abilities you could EASILY make spells, and that would make the game even SIMPLER for people to pick up.

The Paladin and Ranger are even already half-casters. Why not just bite the bullet and turn their features into spells?

There has to be some reason, right?

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And yet, the elemental monk that has abilities that replicate spells, uses their ki to cast spells.

And the elemental monk, according to Mearls himself, is the most poorly recieved and played Monk archetype.

PointOfIsnpiration said:

And the elemental monk, according to Mearls himself, is the most poorly recieved and played Monk archetype.

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Until you reduce the cost of its ki powers, then its great.

PointOfIsnpiration said:

And the elemental monk, according to Mearls himself, is the most poorly recieved and played Monk archetype.

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You missed the “why”.
That class tests poorly because it doesn’t give the character outright new abilities and instead just provides more uses for an already limited resource. The actual design is fine.

A theoretical psionic class could have psi points as well, with some options being straight powers and some replicating spells. Or just gaining the ability to cast certain spells once per short rest. So long as the class is designed for that it’s not a problem.
That design in easy.

We don’t need a psion that adds extra complexity to its powers just for the sake of being different.

If the design for psionics for 5E ends up just being "use this alternate spell list", I'll be a bit disappointed. The lesson of 4E and 5E was "Don't change the core - refine it." The maority of the people playing D&D did not like the total rewrite for 4E and embraced a return to form in 5E. If they rewrite the core of what made psionics psionics in prior editions, it will not go over well. They need PSPs, wild talents... the elements that were essential in Dark Sun.

Also, many people were looking forward to having psionics/mystics/psions as a 2nd intelligence based class. If they make it a subclass of wizard, it isn't that...

I have a lot of faith in Mearls, but I have not heard enough to feel confident here.

The problem for Pisonics is spell casting has taken a lot of its tricks. Metamagic is a direct link to power point amplification. There has always been an overlap between spells and psionic powers; ie Telekinesis and Telekinetic school, most of the enchantment school and various Telepathic powers. I don't know how to unpack Psionics as being different enough to warrant a new system.

I don't think it's going to fly. People want something more distinct than another spell list, and I can almost guarantee they will get overwhelming evidence of that if they put out a playtest on it.

Also, there is a discrepancy in the idea of a spell list not being tied to any class...but then also being used by the mystic. Doesn't that make it the Mystic class spell list?

And if they do also include a full mystic class, I don't see a high percentage of people who will use psionic subclasses but not allow the mystic class--unless they do a poor job on the class. Maybe 35% of groups tops. Just make a good class, and most of those groups will use it, and then the spell list idea becomes superfluous.

Also, we really don't need a lot of psionic classes. 2e, which had the most distinctive and interesting psionics, had a single class, and then wild talents. 3e and 4e felt the need to make multiple psionic classes, but that's just unnecessary. Sure, we could have some limited psionic subclasses, but we don't need to go overboard here. Make a Wild Talent feat similar to Magic Initiate, and maybe another one or two feats that could grab you some psionic ability.

Class, a couple subclasses, a feat or three, all of it done well, and it's done.

The point of the Psionic spell list isn't that it will be the only thing distinguishing the Mystic, but to make it easy to plug in Psionic powers via subclass or race.