Generation Ships--- Can we build one now?

Hussar · Feb 13, 2019

Shasarak said:
How do you expect a society to exist for 1,000 years without changing. Heck the Constitution of the USA did not even last 2 years before being changed.

Because it can’t change. It can’t afford to change. Any change can potentially fail and over that long some changes will fail.

And failure in this sort of system is catastrophic. It cannot be robust enough to allow for complete rewriting of society. Even partial change has to be avoided.

Shasarak · Feb 13, 2019

Hussar said:
Because it can’t change. It can’t afford to change. Any change can potentially fail and over that long some changes will fail.

And failure in this sort of system is catastrophic. It cannot be robust enough to allow for complete rewriting of society. Even partial change has to be avoided.

It has to change. Everything can not run at 100% efficiency for 1,000 years so you need to be adaptable. You can not have maximum population if you are down to 80% resources.

If you want everything to remain static then just send everyone in stasis.

Hussar · Feb 13, 2019

And thus my point that generation ships are not possible.

Shasarak · Feb 13, 2019

Yes, when you have impossible requirements then things are impossible.

Next at 6 journalist reports that water is wet.

Maxperson · Feb 13, 2019

Hussar said:
And, again, I’ll note that no one has commented on what happens when someone violates the population controls.

More responsibilities? Seriously? Violations of human rights that make North Korea look like freedom central and it’s just “more responsibilities”?

If you are on a generation ship, it's not for a joy ride. Humanity is at stake and some sacrifices will be necessary to ensure mankind's survival.

And no you can’t have free speech because free speech allows people to disagree and that leads to changes in society. But you’re on a spaceship where you can’t actually change anything. You are born into a system where you have virtually no rights or freedoms and you will die in that same system and you can’t possibly do anything to change that.

Sure you can. I mean, what sort of changes do you think they will be making? Everyone gets 10 extra meals and gets 20 kids? They are going to be on a generation ship. They aren't going to be making suicidal decisions. Any changes will be minor, constrained by the survival requirements that come with being on a generation ship.

Oh and now the most expensive undertaking humanity could do gets even more expensive because now we have to send supply ships for the next thousand years.

Or else they just plant and grow food/animals on the new planet. Seeds don't take up much space and by the time we send a generation ship anywhere, cloning will be much more refined. We will be able to grow animals to breed on the new world.

Hussar · Feb 13, 2019

Maxperson said:
If you are on a generation ship, it's not for a joy ride. Humanity is at stake and some sacrifices will be necessary to ensure mankind's survival.

So, forced abortion.

Fair enough. But, that's what we're talking about here. We're stripping away the reproductive rights of thousands of people without their permission. Now, we can certainly do that. Sure. But, let's not pretend that we're not committing massive human rights violations to do so. "Some sacrifices" seems a tad euphemistic.

Sure you can. I mean, what sort of changes do you think they will be making? Everyone gets 10 extra meals and gets 20 kids? They are going to be on a generation ship. They aren't going to be making suicidal decisions. Any changes will be minor, constrained by the survival requirements that come with being on a generation ship.

You are presuming 100% rational decisions. I would never presume that. I mean, a change could be, "murder half the population then we can all have more kids and eat more". Societies have certainly done worse.

Or else they just plant and grow food/animals on the new planet. Seeds don't take up much space and by the time we send a generation ship anywhere, cloning will be much more refined. We will be able to grow animals to breed on the new world.

Hard to plant in space. [MENTION=94143]Shasarak[/MENTION] was sending supply ships during the voyage, not the end. Which means that you have to send the supply ships more and more often because you hit the upper limit of speed and the generation ship is getting further and further away constantly. The only way to make sure that supplies reach them regularly is to send them more and more often.

It's not feasible.

Of course, if "humanity is at stake" then there won't be any resupply ships will there?

Hussar · Feb 13, 2019

Shasarak said:
Yes, when you have impossible requirements then things are impossible.

Next at 6 journalist reports that water is wet.

Glad we agree.

Maxperson · Feb 13, 2019

Hussar said:
So, forced abortion.

Fair enough. But, that's what we're talking about here. We're stripping away the reproductive rights of thousands of people without their permission. Now, we can certainly do that. Sure. But, let's not pretend that we're not committing massive human rights violations to do so. "Some sacrifices" seems a tad euphemistic.

You gotta do what you gotta do in order to survive. Look around. The reason you have all of these "rights" is that humanity has progressed to the point where life is easy enough for you to have them. The farther back you go, the harder life gets and the fewer "rights" people had. Harsh conditions breed harsh rules.

You are presuming 100% rational decisions. I would never presume that. I mean, a change could be, "murder half the population then we can all have more kids and eat more". Societies have certainly done worse.

Okay. Let's presume that someone proposes murdering half the kids so they can eat more. So what. The rest laugh at the irrational person and say no. If there are so many that want to make that decision(highly unlikely) that they can pull it off, a rule against speech isn't going to stop them. There's no need to curtail speech with your example.

Hard to plant in space. [MENTION=94143]Shasarak[/MENTION] was sending supply ships during the voyage, not the end. Which means that you have to send the supply ships more and more often because you hit the upper limit of speed and the generation ship is getting further and further away constantly. The only way to make sure that supplies reach them regularly is to send them more and more often.

It's not feasible.

Of course, if "humanity is at stake" then there won't be any resupply ships will there?

No. The resupply idea is probably not workable unless we get some sort of tech that allows faster than light travel and has a mass limit that keeps the generation ship from using it, but allows the supply ships to use it.

tomBitonti · Feb 13, 2019

If we can set some parameters:

(1) How close are possible target systems?

The Centauri system is closest at 4.2 LY, and Proxima Centauri has a candidate planet. If that planet is habitable, that would be great luck. But we don't have enough data yet. There are other candidates out to about 50 LY shown here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nearest_terrestrial_exoplanet_candidates

(2) How fast could we get the ship going?

(3) How big of a ship could we build? How many people would that ship hold?

(4) How big of a ship is necessary? How many people are necessary?

Thx!
TomB

Umbran · Feb 13, 2019

Hussar said:
Because it can’t change. It can’t afford to change. Any change can potentially fail and over that long some changes will fail.

And failure in this sort of system is catastrophic. It cannot be robust enough to allow for complete rewriting of society. Even partial change has to be avoided.

Then it cannot be done at all.

Humans *do not* stay static. No society on Earth has stayed static for so long, and we should not suspect it here. Yes, abject failure is catastrophic, but *the people know that*. Their situation, and the fact that hard vacuum is just outside, is not lost upon them.

On the flip side, once you are hurtling through space... you just keep hurtling through space. The interstellar void is filled with a whole lot of nothing, and a whole lot of nothing people on the ship have to do other than regular maintenance, and you probably have wiggle room on exactly when that happens.

While there is potential of failure, that's *always* the case in space. *ALWAYS*. People die in space. Space is dangerous. If you're not up to taking on some risk of failure, don't start.

Honestly, it is always the case here - especially since the creation of nuclear weapons. Note that we haven't been able to manage that risk with a static policy - we keep changing over time, a dynamic approach to reaching the goal.

Generation Ships--- Can we build one now?

Hussar

Legend

Shasarak

Banned

Hussar

Legend

Shasarak

Banned

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus

Hussar

Legend

Hussar

Legend

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus

tomBitonti

Adventurer

Umbran

Mod Squad

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