D&D General Monsters and their relationship with nature

Nevvur · Jul 9, 2019

dave2008 said:
There are no natural breath weapons. Yes poison and acid (which you didn't mention) could plausibly be "natural," but there is no "natural" creature the exhales acid or poison gas like dragons. There are things that are similar though (spiting cobra, horned toads, bombadier beetles, ants, etc.). Of course I don't what that has to do with your argument (giants have similar issues).

Dragon breath is natural within the nature of the DnD universe. Or at least, after a careful parsing of the entry on dragons and breath weapons, I conclude breath weapons are not magical, and if not magical, what then?

77IM · Jul 9, 2019

Nevvur said:
Dragon breath is natural within the nature of the DnD universe. Or at least, after a careful parsing of the entry on dragons and breath weapons, I conclude breath weapons are not magical, and if not magical, what then?

Supernatural? There's a vast number of things in D&D that are not magical, but don't follow the physics of our universe. Ghosts, for example, don't blink out in an antimagic field, and you can't go to the Astral Plane and attempt to dispel the whole place. (I mean, you could, but it wouldn't work.)

There's no reason to strictly categorize everything as "magic" or "not magic." If magic is a fundamental force then calling something "not magical" would be like contending that frogs don't obey the laws of electromagnetism or that ants don't feel gravity or that a jet aircraft doesn't experience the weak nuclear force.

I like to think of it as a continuum from "less magical" to "more magical." It's like when the elves of Lothlorien give Sam some really excellent rope that never comes untied unless you want it to, and he asks, "Is it magic?" and the elf who gave it to him is like, "Uh, you can call it whatever you want. We just make the best rope we know how to make."

Nevvur · Jul 9, 2019

77IM said:
Supernatural? There's a vast number of things in D&D that are not magical, but don't follow the physics of our universe. Ghosts, for example, don't blink out in an antimagic field, and you can't go to the Astral Plane and attempt to dispel the whole place. (I mean, you could, but it wouldn't work.)

There's no reason to strictly categorize everything as "magic" or "not magic." If magic is a fundamental force then calling something "not magical" would be like contending that frogs don't obey the laws of electromagnetism or that ants don't feel gravity or that a jet aircraft doesn't experience the weak nuclear force.

I like to think of it as a continuum from "less magical" to "more magical." It's like when the elves of Lothlorien give Sam some really excellent rope that never comes untied unless you want it to, and he asks, "Is it magic?" and the elf who gave it to him is like, "Uh, you can call it whatever you want. We just make the best rope we know how to make."

True. It was a narrow perspective I offered in the interest of brevity, but it certainly is more nuanced than that.

Even so, I treat dragon breath as just a part of DnD nature. Is this from the Monster Manual or an article about animals on Earth?

"... is outfitted with some serious defense mechanisms, including an armored body that protects it from the elements. But it's the boiling hot liquid sprayed from its stomach that is most effective against predators. Inside [its] abdomen are two chemical-filled chambers that, when combined, create an acid that heats up to 212 degrees Fahrenheit (100 degrees Celsius) and then sprays out in an explosive manner through the abdominal wall. And if the spray isn't enough to scare off any animal, [it] also makes a sound like a gunshot once it unleashes an acid bath on its predator."

Tony Vargas · Jul 9, 2019

dave2008 said:
I'm just proposing that your system is flawed if you don't have an answer for dragons. This is Dungeons and Dragons after all.

It doesn't fit the ________ of Nature thing the OP is going for, but, it seems to me D&D Dragons are powerfully symbolic of Hubris.

dave2008 · Jul 10, 2019

Nevvur said:
"... is outfitted with some serious defense mechanisms, including an armored body that protects it from the elements. But it's the boiling hot liquid sprayed from its stomach that is most effective against predators. Inside [its] abdomen are two chemical-filled chambers that, when combined, create an acid that heats up to 212 degrees Fahrenheit (100 degrees Celsius) and then sprays out in an explosive manner through the abdominal wall. And if the spray isn't enough to scare off any animal, [it] also makes a sound like a gunshot once it unleashes an acid bath on its predator."

I believe that would be a member of the bombardier beetle family I mentioned up thread.

dave2008 · Jul 10, 2019

Tony Vargas said:
It doesn't fit the ________ of Nature thing the OP is going for, but, it seems to me D&D Dragons are powerfully symbolic of Hubris.

I did gave examples of how it could (or so I thought)

dave2008 · Jul 10, 2019

Nevvur said:
Dragon breath is natural within the nature of the DnD universe. Or at least, after a careful parsing of the entry on dragons and breath weapons, I conclude breath weapons are not magical, and if not magical, what then?

I agree they could be considered "natural" in the context of D&D. But they would be supernatural or magical IRL.

However, I think even in the context of D&D they are magical to extent. I believe it was Mearls who explained that certain magical traits of monsters cannot be dispelled because the are so intrinsic to the creature. The magic is so weaved into their being it is part of their "natural" state. I think he gave the example of a dragon's breath weapon even (or maybe it was their flight). So dragons are inherently magically and things like their ability to fly and their breath weapons are to some extent magical, but they are not spells and cannot be dispelled and I think are unaffected by anti-magic.

Doug McCrae · Jul 10, 2019

Colours are weirdly important in D&D, especially with monsters. Not only dragons but also, from the 1e MM, purple worm, black pudding, green slime, ochre jelly, umber hulk, violet fungi, gray ooze, and brown and yellow mold.

VelvetViolet · Jul 10, 2019

77IM said:
Supernatural? There's a vast number of things in D&D that are not magical, but don't follow the physics of our universe. Ghosts, for example, don't blink out in an antimagic field, and you can't go to the Astral Plane and attempt to dispel the whole place. (I mean, you could, but it wouldn't work.)

There's no reason to strictly categorize everything as "magic" or "not magic." If magic is a fundamental force then calling something "not magical" would be like contending that frogs don't obey the laws of electromagnetism or that ants don't feel gravity or that a jet aircraft doesn't experience the weak nuclear force.

I like to think of it as a continuum from "less magical" to "more magical." It's like when the elves of Lothlorien give Sam some really excellent rope that never comes untied unless you want it to, and he asks, "Is it magic?" and the elf who gave it to him is like, "Uh, you can call it whatever you want. We just make the best rope we know how to make."

Sadly this sort of thinking is almost entirely absent from fantasy fiction. Except Tolkien, ironically enough.

IMO, the really weird thing is that this sort of magic is basically scifi technology in a universe which operates according to fantasy physics.