Skills used by players on other players.

Wiseblood · Dec 9, 2018

I hope the op learned a lesson.

Don’t let PCs impose their will on other PCs using the rules. I will say never again at my table. If the players agree beforehand and they can handle it then that’s fine. My players can not.

Blue · Dec 9, 2018

DM Dave1 said:
Methinks you are bringing pre-5e style to your stance.

5e might just work best when the DM calls for the rolls, not the players. It's right there in the "How to Play" section of the PHB. YMMV of course

I put it originally in such a way that the DM could call for a roll if they wanted to, of whatever type they wanted. But then I got fancy footwork that avoided the question and did nothing to advance the discussion. Assuming that this was a misunderstanding as opposed to trolling, I spelled it out in a high level of detail. If you read the original so you have context of what we are talking about it should make sense.

Yes, you are completely correct I wrote Bluff when I should have written Deception. My bad.

robus · Dec 9, 2018

[MENTION=12354]Thyrwyn[/MENTION] - excellently put!

Lord Mhoram · Dec 9, 2018

Blue said:
Let me ask this from the other side. One that doesn't affect character agency.

Character A tells the group something. The character is lying.

Character B is suspicious - maybe they think character A is charmed, or carrying out a mission for their faction, or it doesn't jive with other information. Player B asks the DM if their character thinks Character A is lying.

Is it in-line for the DM to ask for a bluff vs. insight role if the first character wasn't telling the truth?

(Alternately: for those who are using the Isereth (?) method where pvp is determined by the person being affected, is the bluff a "pvp attack" and it needs to be disclosed to player B that it was a lie so they can determine how they respond?)

This is just wondering about social skill use vs. other characters when player agency isn't at risk. I think the answer to this sort might help define where the line is for some.

Given that player agency was the thing that caused my negative reaction.. this would be perfectly fine to me.

Ovinomancer · Dec 9, 2018

Blue said:
Instead of playing word games, answer the actual question. I tried to phrase it in such such a way that those who "don't let players call for rolls" would accept it, and now you're dodging the question with fancy wordplay. This does not add to the conversation.

Character B is attempting to figure out if "A" is lying. Regardless if "A" is a PC or NPC. There happens to be a useful skill called Insight to help tell this and there's another skill called Bluff to tell the lie in a believable way.

I fully believe you are capable of putting together some sort of use of these skills and a potential lie that can answer the question instead of dodging ti with a snarky answer that blocks the conversation from happening.

He did answer, though. There's no check because the player gets to decide what their PC thinks. Period. If they think the other PC is lying, they think that. If their suspicious, they think that. No rolls are called for. In other words, what the PC thinks isn't ever uncertain -- it's what the player says -- so there's never a need to roll.

If a player was unsure or in the dark if another player was having their character lie, would you require the player be informed, or does this play out in-game at the character level? However you envision that occuring.

Saying that all players automatically recognize all lies may be a true at your table but isn't particularly useful in the realm of "all tables" for furthering the discussion. Especially AL games where people may not be there week to week or may join a game already in progress, where factions give out secret missions, etc.

Why would I reach for dice to resolve if a player is uncertain if another player just lied? Seems weird. I know you really want to know how [MENTION=97077]iserith[/MENTION] (and others) would use the mechanics to solve your proposed conundrum, but the answer is we wouldn't -- it's not an issue for mechanics, but for players. This may be unfulfilling, but it's what it is.

FrogReaver · Dec 9, 2018

Blue said:
Let me ask this from the other side. One that doesn't affect character agency.

Character A tells the group something. The character is lying.

Character B is suspicious - maybe they think character A is charmed, or carrying out a mission for their faction, or it doesn't jive with other information. Player B asks the DM if their character thinks Character A is lying.

Is it in-line for the DM to ask for a bluff vs. insight role if the first character wasn't telling the truth?

Yes, because
#1 the player asked the DM to help him decide whether his PC thought the other PC was lying.
#2 (In iserith's style of play the pc wouldn't ask the dm if he thought he was lying, the player would say something like my PC is trying to determine if the other PC is lying).

I consider #1 to be a shortcut for #2 but I think iserith's playstyle highlights what is happening behind the scenes in either case.

So the answer is that no matter how the player phrases it, the PC in question is essentially "trying to determine if the other PC is lying". Properly interpreted the player isn't really asking the DM what his PC actually thinks either, but instead he is asking if there's anything he picks up on that would allow him to determine that the other PC was lying.

(Alternately: for those who are using the Isereth (?) method where pvp is determined by the person being affected, is the bluff a "pvp attack" and it needs to be disclosed to player B that it was a lie so they can determine how they respond?)

I don't play that way so I can't answer that.

This is just wondering about social skill use vs. other characters when player agency isn't at risk. I think the answer to this sort might help define where the line is for some.

Hopefully the above answers your question

(By the way to get iserith to give you the answer to your question you desire you are going to have to drop the "what is my pc thinking line" because he would never even allow that in his game. Instead translate that to iserith playspeak, "my PC tries to determine if the other PC is lying". Ask iserith what he would do here and I bet he would call for a roll as described. It doesn't present quite the catch 22 that you thought it would in that scenario though.)

iserith · Dec 9, 2018

FrogReaver said:
(By the way to get iserith to give you the answer to your question you desire you are going to have to drop the "what is my pc thinking line" because he would never even allow that in his game. Instead translate that to iserith playspeak, "my PC tries to determine if the other PC is lying". Ask iserith what he would do here and I bet he would call for a roll as described. It doesn't present quite the catch 22 that you thought it would in that scenario though.)

[MENTION=16814]Ovinomancer[/MENTION] has it. It's just worked out by the players involved in a way that they believe will be fun for everyone and that contributes to an exciting, memorable story. I see no need for mechanics here.

FrogReaver · Dec 9, 2018

iserith said:
[MENTION=16814]Ovinomancer[/MENTION] has it. It's just worked out by the players involved in a way that they believe will be fun for everyone and that contributes to an exciting, memorable story. I see no need for mechanics here.

Welp I lost that bet lol. But that's influenced from your way of resolving pc vs pc conflict.

However, perhaps more importantly for everyone to understand is that even if it was an npc in question instead of another pc you still wouldn't allow the "hey DM does my pc think they are lying" comment. You would have them say what their PC was trying to do as an action, "my pc is trying to determine if NPC is lying". Then if you determined it uncertain you would call for the roll.

iserith · Dec 9, 2018

FrogReaver said:
Welp I lost that bet lol. But that's influenced from your way of resolving pc vs pc conflict.

Yeah man, there's a whole world of villains and monsters out there to lie to, steal from, and murder. Ain't got time for people who want to instead flip coins trying to mess with each other.

FrogReaver said:
However, perhaps more importantly for everyone to understand is that even if it was an npc in question instead of another pc you still wouldn't allow the "hey DM does my pc think they are lying" comment. You would have them say what their PC was trying to do as an action, "my pc is trying to determine if NPC is lying". Then if you determined it uncertain you would call for the roll.

I would say it's not about allowing or not allowing it really. I just can't do anything with that question - there's nothing there for me to adjudicate into a result because the player didn't tell me what he or she wanted to do. I would tell the player I can't tell them what their PC thinks (just did that a couple sessions ago in a pick-up group) and ask the player to tell me what they are trying to accomplish and how they are going about accomplishing it.

Guest 6801328 · Dec 9, 2018

Yeah, I'm not sure why you're calling "fancy footwork!" etc. He gave you an answer: he said he'd just ask the players what their characters do.

If it makes for a better story, hopefully the one being lied to will go along with it. If not...what are you going to do, say, "No, you wouldn't know it's a lie. Now play along with it!" and force the guy to roleplay in a way that he pretty much just said doesn't interest him?

And maybe, maybe that player says, "Umm...I don't know. Can I tell he's lying?" In that case, sure, call for a roll. But let the player use the result of the roll however he pleases. Maybe he'll roll a 1, then ignore it and decide he knows it's a lie, anyway. So what?

If you really just don't like the way this guy roleplays, stop inviting him.

Skills used by players on other players.

Wiseblood

Adventurer

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal

robus

Lowcountry Low Roller

Lord Mhoram

Hero

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog

iserith

Magic Wordsmith

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog

iserith

Magic Wordsmith

Guest 6801328

Guest

Similar Threads