How do YOU handle a Fastball Special, and other team manuevers?

Guest 6801328 · Apr 12, 2019

doctorbadwolf said:
We don’t make players enumerate what feats of athletic and acrobatic prowess they have practiced, we just sail by that, for all manner of stuff that requires tons of practice and/or training. I’m not gonna worry about how much training something requires irl when determining how to adjudicate it in game.

I do, however, feel that there is a big difference between chucking a halfling over a pit, and some kind of precise and quickly executed move in combat. That's where the training does come in. (Although we don't simulate the practice of casting a spell, we also restrict its use to spellcasting classes. Right?)

I would allow anybody to throw a halfling over a pit out of combat (up to whatever threshold one considers gonzo) as a regular thing, but a combat maneuver would be something that has to be "trained" in some sense, such as a Battlemaster maneuver, or a feature of a class that does stuff like this. Or maybe it's even a Feat that both parties have to take. I definitely would not put such a thing in the same category as Shove and Grapple.

Jeff Carlsen · Apr 12, 2019

doctorbadwolf said:
I’d rather not create a power for a subclass to cover a thing that any barbarian and rogue combo might want to do, when I can work a simple general rule that simply covers throwing things that are about creature sized, and a general set of guidelines for dealing with group maneuvers. This is exactly why it’s worthwhile to, when something like this has come up and you’re done with the session, come up with a general rule for like cases, based on how the system handle things, and what you and your group want out of the game.

That's fine. It was an illustration of the method. But now that we have a framework, let's use it? What are your goals, approach, and tone for the thing you want to design?

Dannyalcatraz · Apr 12, 2019

doctorbadwolf said:
edit: [MENTION=19675]Dannyalcatraz[/MENTION] I don’t think that there is any significant chance that a ball can’t be thrown accurately. Balls are aerodynamic. Distance would suffer, but it’s almost certainly possible.

When did I say anything about a ball?

In any case, yes, it is possible to mis-throw a ball. It happens in every game of baseball, even by the most skilled pitchers.

As for the idea idea that a single person performing the maneuver in the video might not walk again...come on, man. You’re wildly speculating. More likely, they fall over at worst, and they’d have to have some bigger team members and only throw the smallest members in that manner. Performing that maneuver with someone whose mass is half your own would not be soemthing with a more significant risk of injury than simply lifting heavy things, or running full speed in full gear, which are things I doubt any of us make any sort of issue of in game.

No, I’m not wildly speculating. Lifting a static dead weight like a box or barbell isn’t as difficult as lifting the same mass in motion.

In both cases, there is a lot of force being directed downward through the thrower’s spine. But with a mass already in motion, it isn’t all in one direction. There are vectors going in directions that are not straight down. If his or her core isn’t up to it and/or their technique is a bit off, a solo thrower risks serious- possibly permanent- back injury.

If you do or watch powerlifting, you’ll notice that even on warm up weights a fraction of their max, lifters always have back braces. And the smart ones will have spotters as well if they’re using free weights.

Guest 6801328 · Apr 12, 2019

In before “Do you even lift?”

doctorbadwolf · Apr 12, 2019

Dannyalcatraz said:
When did I say anything about a ball?

In any case, yes, it is possible to mis-throw a ball. It happens in every game of baseball, even by the most skilled pitchers.

This is not an honest retort. no one said anything about the possibility of missing a throw. You claimed that it’s very likely that such an object (and they are balls. I don’t beleive for a second that you were confused by the word “ball” in reference to the thing being thrown.) cannot he thrown accurately. I challenged the idea that there is any significant chance of that being true.

No, I’m not wildly speculating. Lifting a static dead weight like a box or barbell isn’t as difficult as lifting the same mass in motion.

In both cases, there is a lot of force being directed downward through the thrower’s spine. But with a mass already in motion, it isn’t all in one direction. There are vectors going in directions that are not straight down. If his or her core isn’t up to it and/or their technique is a bit off, a solo thrower risks serious- possibly permanent- back injury.

If you do or watch powerlifting, you’ll notice that even on warm up weights a fraction of their max, lifters always have back braces. And the smart ones will have spotters as well if they’re using free weights.

And ballet dancers throw smaller ballet dancers without spotters, but more importantly, none of those things are tasks that dnd tries to model the risk of injury. Maybe recall that I said that such throwing a smaller creature isn’t more likely to result in injury than lifting heavy things and carry large amounts of weight while running around. “More likely” literally recognizes some likelihood, by definition.

If you’re just going to twist what people say to “win” internet argument points, find someone else. I couldn’t be more bored by such nonsense.

Damon_Tor · Apr 13, 2019

Thread strikes me as odd. Jumping further with a roll is listed as a potential use of the athletics skill. So:

1. The "thrower" readies his action to Help the "throwee".
2. The throwee runs up to the thrower and jumps.
3. The thrower Helps the throwee with his jump.

Why does it need to be more complicated than that?

doctorbadwolf · Apr 13, 2019

Damon_Tor said:
Thread strikes me as odd. Jumping further with a roll is listed as a potential use of the athletics skill. So:

1. The "thrower" readies his action to Help the "throwee".
2. The throwee runs up to the thrower and jumps.
3. The thrower Helps the throwee with his jump.

Why does it need to be more complicated than that?

How do you determine distance? If giving a benefit commensurate with spending a second character’s action is part of one’s goal, how do you do so simply in this case?

I also prefer to have both characters make a roll, but only require 1 roll per participant, so I’d rather have the thrower be the one making the Athletics check, and use their strength score as the baseline. This provides an immediate benefit bc the thrower will almost certainly have a greater strength score.

Lastly; I suggest adding 1d6 damage to a successful attack at the end per 10 ft thrown bc that feels more like something that is worth that second character’s action, but not enough to be better than the character taking the attack action most of the time, so it’s not an always better choice. You wouldn’t use it unless it’s to get an attack when you wouldn’t otherwise that round, get someone into a space they couldn’t reach alone, etc.

Guest 6801328 · Apr 13, 2019

doctorbadwolf said:
How do you determine distance?

I wouldn't. The two or three times a year this actually occurs I would make up a DC, tell the player the DC, and what the penalty is for failure.

Any player who would argue, "Last time it was 5 feet less, and you gave it the same DC!!!!" probably would have voluntarily left my table on some other issue a long time ago.

Cap'n Kobold · Apr 13, 2019

doctorbadwolf said:
This is not an honest retort. no one said anything about the possibility of missing a throw. You claimed that it’s very likely that such an object (and they are balls. I don’t beleive for a second that you were confused by the word “ball” in reference to the thing being thrown.) cannot he thrown accurately. I challenged the idea that there is any significant chance of that being true.

You . . . might want to scroll up a bit, and then maybe apologise to DannyAlcatraz. - He was directly discussing accuracy of such throws with HawkDiesel, which is where the possibility of missing a throw would be being discussed.

You were the first person to start talking about balls. DannyAlcatraz was discussing caber and hammer throws. Not balls.
A ball of equivalent weight would be much harder to throw than a caber or hammer to equivalent distance - even harder than a humanoid.

If you’re just going to twist what people say to “win” internet argument points, find someone else. I couldn’t be more bored by such nonsense.[/QUOTE]

Brashnir2 · Apr 13, 2019

When I'm DMing, if my players want to try something unusual like this in the moment, I usually don't worry too much about the action economy, and just let them do the thing in a way that's fun. I don't worry too much if it's a bit OP.

In this specific instance, I'd probably have the tosser use their action to toss the tossee, and then let the tossee use their reaction to make an attack on the target. I wouldn't even require a skill check unless they were trying to toss the person an extreme distance, well beyond what the higher-STR character could jump on their own.

That just goes for one-off moments of trying stuff like this, though. If they tried to make it a regular tactic, I'd have to reign it in and set up a more rigorous set of balances within the action economy.

Let them do the fun thing once, but don't let them wreck your game with it.

How do YOU handle a Fastball Special, and other team manuevers?

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