Is Pathfinder 2 Paizo's 4E?

CapnZapp

Legend
The primary difference between 4e and 5e is the speed of combat. Outside of that, the game is virtually identical.
What an odd thing to say. You come across as not having played either.

I have played both 4E and 5E and they're worlds apart.

For D&D games, that is.

I guess you could say 5E is virtually identical to 4E compared to, say, Monopoly or Uno...
 

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Hussar

Legend
What an odd thing to say. You come across as not having played either.

I have played both 4E and 5E and they're worlds apart.

For D&D games, that is.

I guess you could say 5E is virtually identical to 4E compared to, say, Monopoly or Uno...

LOL. I always shake my head when folks say this.

Hrm, 2 step recovery system, skill system that is virtually identical (strip out the level adjustments from 4e and you get the 5e skill system), every class is built on the same model, instead of powers, nearly every class gets spells, many of which do the same things that powers did in 4e. What else... oh, removing the need for magic items - 4e used inherent bonuses, 5e just does without, umm, what else? NPC's and PC's built on different rules, no magic item economy, spells attack stats, I'm sure I could come up with more.

Having played and run both for about equal numbers of years, I can honestly say that if you think they're worlds apart and that 5e is closer to 3e, well, I'm not sure what you're looking at.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
LOL. I always shake my head when folks say this.

Hrm, 2 step recovery system, skill system that is virtually identical (strip out the level adjustments from 4e and you get the 5e skill system), every class is built on the same model, instead of powers, nearly every class gets spells, many of which do the same things that powers did in 4e. What else... oh, removing the need for magic items - 4e used inherent bonuses, 5e just does without, umm, what else? NPC's and PC's built on different rules, no magic item economy, spells attack stats, I'm sure I could come up with more.

Having played and run both for about equal numbers of years, I can honestly say that if you think they're worlds apart and that 5e is closer to 3e, well, I'm not sure what you're looking at.
I'm not denying the theoretical similarities.

I'm telling you they look and feel completely different.

4E had an intense focus on the battle board. Every little push and move felt important and useful. While this made playing a Fighter much more fun and interesting and rewarding than in 3E or 5E, it contributed to making combats take forever (at least if you made them challenging). 5E is nothing like this.

The way you could not regain hit points without spending a Healing Surge completely transforms 4E into something alien contrasted to other editions - it means every character absolutely must get into the thick of it. If they don't soak any damage, their surges get unused, something the party simply cannot afford.

Skill Challenges was a hateful trainwreck of an idea. Minions were a fudge you simply don't need in 3E or 5E. 4E has solid support for Solos, which is good, but also something that differentiates the editions.

Spells are not just refluffed attacks. They do, well, magical stuff. Casters and martials feel completely different and not much-the-same. Fireball isn't a "daily" (except, I guess, at exactly level five). Huge difference.

Magic items are actually magical and powerful in 5E, much like in 3E. In 4E they were utterly bland and I routinely had to combine two items into one, and still the players simply forgot to use them. It's like night and day.

The vast majority of official 4E adventures are just stringed-along combat encounters. 5E adventures read much like AD&D or 3E adventures, which you may or may not like, but at least make for a sizeable difference.

Sure the default healing rule of 5E feels very off, but ruling you don't get back any hit points (but instead all of your hit dice) is quick and painless, and makes the game run close enough to older editions.

So... not sure what to say. I never thought I had to point out something as obvious as this.

I'm happy leaving it at that, and won't reply to you further on this matter.
 

Hussar

Legend
CapnZapp said:
The vast majority of official 4E adventures are just stringed-along combat encounters. 5E adventures read much like AD&D or 3E adventures, which you may or may not like, but at least make for a sizeable difference.

Now that I can't really argue with. 4e modules, particularly early ones, were egregiously bad. To be fair, the Dungeon ones got better towards the end - the Chaos Scar adventures were actually a ton of fun.

On the other hand, magic items in 4e were what you made them. My rogue with a life draining dagger and my warlock with the Crown of Winter were both fascinating to play. Again, it's what you make it.

But, yeah, we're going to have to agree to disagree here. You see these massive differences in play and I simply don't. 4e and 5e, outside of combat, play virtually identically. 5e, to me, is just sped up 4e. It's an improvement, to be sure, but, the 4e DNA is most certainly there in every aspect of 5e.
 



I mean, what exactly is Paizo hoping for?

1) Paizo needs to address the relentless attrition of their existing player-base that all popular RPGs are subject to. The status-quo means decline. A new edition raises the profile of the game and will bring in new blood.

2) Help maintain the existing PF1 player-base by addressing some of the widely acknowledged problems with PF1.

3) Get in on the incredible growth of the D&D market in the last few years. If even only 20 per cent of 5E players decide to try PF2, that's a huge influx of new players.

4) Sell a bunch of new books to keep the revenue flowing.
 

Not at all but that isn’t what the published rules help you to do, that’s a patch over them
I'm not sure I'd call it a patch.

In my case, it is throwing out a major part of the rules-as-written in favour of something that I basically make up as I go along. The alternative would be not running Pathfinder at all.

However, plenty of players prefer the GM to play by the rules and I'd be unable to run Pathfinder with those players.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
LOL. I always shake my head when folks say this.
Hrm, 2 step recovery system, every class is built on the same model, instead of powers, nearly every class gets spells, many of which do the same things that powers did in 4e, skill system that is virtually identical (strip out the level adjustments from 4e and you get the 5e skill system), What else... oh, removing the need for magic items - 4e used inherent bonuses, 5e just does without, umm, what else?
You're not wrong about those being similarities, but they're not identical, and the play dynamic they generate can be /very/ different.

The short/long rest distinction in 5e, for instance, is 1 vs 8 hrs, often time enough for one is time enough for the other, you just can't take more than one of the latter in a given 24 hr period - the design assumption is 2-3 short rest & 6-8 encounters per long rest, or about a short rest every-other encounter.
In 4e the short rest is 5 min, virtually guaranteed between encounters.

The latter is a much more practical assumption to design around.

And, it's further complicated by the differences in class design. In 4e, AEDU classes were all on the same schedule, a variation in encounters:short rests:long rests impacted all classes about the same. In 5e, while, if you look under the hood, and listen carefully to some things Mearls has said, yes, there's an underlying spell-based design framework, the resultant classes vary wildly in the proportions & powers of their resources that recharge with each type of rest, which means varying from the 6-8:2-3:1 assumption alters class balance... not that classes are balanced to begin with, nor that they balance at that same point dependably as the game progresses in level (LFQW).

NPC's and PC's built on different rules, no magic item economy, spells attack stats, I'm sure I could come up with more.
So, /only/ 3.x of all the D&D species, built PCs & NPCs/monsters on exactly the same rules by default. It was always an option in all the others, but the presentation of monsters/NPCs in completely different blocks is the norm for D&D, just one of the few ways that 4e was normative D&D.

4e had a very prescriptive wealth/buy magic item economy, just like 3e. It was simpler to do away with it, but it was there by default and assumed. 5e nominally assumes no items (first time in D&D history, BTW, one of the few unique things about it), but no 3.5 make/buy, it goes back to old-school exclusively-DM-curated items.

Linking spell effectiveness - saves are mathematically identical to attack rolls - dates to 3.0, at the latest, and linking caster effectiveness to one stat goes back to the beginning. Using the same stat for the formal distinction of an attack roll as well as saves is almost trivial, really.

Having played and run both for about equal numbers of years, I can honestly say that if you think they're worlds apart and that 5e is closer to 3e, well, I'm not sure what you're looking at.
4e and 5e and 3e and TSR-era D&D are definitely worlds apart. Yes, even though they're worlds made of all the same elements in very closely similar proportions. Like, Mars and Venus are both terrestrial nickel-iron-core planets in the life zone - but surface conditions vary between the two. The play experience of 5e is - OK, can be - entirely different from 3e or 4e. (In all eds of D&D, the DM can greatly influence the play experience, of course.)

But, yeah, we're going to have to agree to disagree here. You see these massive differences in play and I simply don't. 4e and 5e, outside of combat, play virtually identically. 5e, to me, is just sped up 4e. It's an improvement, to be sure, but, the 4e DNA is most certainly there in every aspect of 5e.
The DNA is certainly there in all d20/WotC eds... the same base-pairs, 98-99% identical like Humans, Chimps and Gorillas - and at least as different as humans, chimps and gorillas.


I mean, your not wrong: D&D has stayed the same much more than it's changed - even with 4e - but among versions of D&D, 4e is the outlier along a lot more dimensions than 5e. And, in some of the most important ones, like the role of the DM, 3e & 4e are both more deviant than 5e.
 
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zztong

Explorer
Not at all but that isn’t what the published rules help you to do, that’s a patch over them

That's an interesting perspective. I wouldn't have called it a patch, but I get your meaning.

I do appreciate that I can use the rules to make monsters/NPCs. I like having the option. I just don't feel bound to always use them.

When it comes to PF2, I may not be a fan, but I can appreciate why they may have switched philosophies.

I've met some folks who view using the rules for NPCs/monsters as a matter of balance. My interpretation is that they like that using the rules gives them a marker, like "its a CR4 encounter." But I usually look at "balance" as a matter between players. I don't want one player to feel slighted compared to another. As a DM, I regularly create encounters that are out of balance (over and under powered) with the PCs and I recognize that things like shapes of rooms, environmental hazards, numbers of opponents, the presence of flying creatures, surprise, and preparation can skew any CR-like computations.
 

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