Players 'distressed' by gang-rape role-playing game

MarkB said:

Wouldn't it bother you that your "in the moment" solution would leave them free to be just as cruel again, when you're not looking?

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No. Especially in the case we are discussing because it was game content real world actions. That is a risk that happens when you don't hand out some kind of permanent punishment

Riley37 said:

Meanwhile, if BRG can skim post #213, without seeing anything about rape, then he's got a blind spot. I can bring him water, but I can't make him drink. I also can't persuade anyone that the Earth is round, if they're sufficiently determined to believe otherwise.

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I did not see the quote you posted. Which very much changes the nature of the rape (my understanding was the rape scene was implied--but your quote suggested otherwise). I will read it again now that I am home, but I honestly didn't see it the first time. But I want to be clear here, I do not enjoy the condescension you are leveling at me. You are talking to me like I am less intelligent than you and beneath you. Please don't do that.

EDIT: So that quoted section was buried in the comments section of the blog post. I am following the link now. It isn't like it was super obvious Riley

EDIT II: Having read through it, I think these are two strikingly different accounts and I wouldn't automatically believe one over the other. There are plenty of reasons you end up with different narratives of an event. I think in this case, the convention handled it how they saw fit. I don't object to that. They can do what they want. I do see the player mentioned there were tears shed by all, and this strikes me as a somewhat unusual reaction to game content. Just based on the description, it was off-putting but I think adults shouldn't be crying over that sort of thing.

Bedrockgames said:

No. Especially in the case we are discussing because it was game content real world actions. That is a risk that happens when you don't hand out some kind of permanent punishment

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Sorry, but I just can't parse this reply. It feels like it's missing some words. Can you clarify?

MarkB said:

Sorry, but I just can't parse this reply. It feels like it's missing some words. Can you clarify?

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Yes, what I meant was, I am not worried about it. Look there are plenty of real world examples of what happens when you use permanent punishments in order to make sure someone doesn't make the world unsafe again. And obviously some actions might require that (if we were talking about murder rather than a person running a game session) things might be different. I am happy to address cruelty when I see it. But I don't think there is anything I should be doing to make sure there is 0 chance that cruelty arises again. The best I can do is try to help steer someone away from that kind of behavior.

Bedrockgames said:

I think the hobby is extremely polarized and personally I am not much of a fan of either extreme. I think it is becoming harder and harder for people to have honest disputes and disagreements without folks loading a large quantity of assumptions upon you for simple disagreement. Here you are essentially saying anyone who disagrees with you is toxic or terrible in some other way, and that is the reason they disagree. That isn't how normal humans operate in my view. I assume you are taking the position you currently take on this issue because you genuinely think it is right. I happen to think it is misguided, but I don't think you are doing it from some kind of bad intent.

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I am quite frankly at a loss.

Is my position that 'People shouldn't run rape scenarios in a public venue like a con, and if they do should be banned from running games at cons' an extreme position or side?

If it is an extreme position to take...I am unsure I'd like to be part of a group where "lets not subject people to rape scenarios on-screen or off" is an extreme position. This isnt about me calling you toxic or terrible. I honestly don't know you? But the ideas you have expressed I find harmful in general...though unfortunately not rare.

Bedrockgames said:

I think I have. My view of it is we are giving into our worse nature online when we publicly shame or go after people like this, or when we recklessly pursue a moral program of some kind in the wake of such an event. I think there is a lot of cruelty being expressed in this thread and people don't see it, because they think they are so correct. Personally I am not a big fan of cruelty.

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Oh, you've made arguments, of course. None of them are convincing, however, for all of the reasons spelled out across the posts over the last page and half. To recap just the points made in this very short post:

"we are giving into our worse nature online when we publicly shame or go after people like this"
Again, this is less about shame than it is (a) public accountability and (b) safety. I think it's fair to question, at this point, how the con would have handled this situation were the complaints only brought discreetly to a handful of con attendees as opposed to being made public. Would the con have handled it in the same exact way? Maybe. Maybe not; I mean, the guy who made the decision knew him for at least a decade. Made him a face of the con by making him a Room Captain (this point being exactly why some people might not have felt safe going to the con organizer). Predators rely on "good ol' boy" networks to keep their dirty laundry private so they can keep being predators. That's the accountability piece. As for safety, well, I am sure there are cons where Kevin Rolfe will be more than welcome to run his games still. Are the people who would be most traumatized by his "shocking" content going to give pause to joining his games when they see his name on the listing, now? Public awareness makes people safe by giving them the information they need to avoid being traumatized by bad actors, while at the same time raising public accountability for those who might have otherwise given his behavior a pass.

"or when we recklessly pursue a moral program of some kind in the wake of such an event"
To be clear, the "moral program" in question is "rape = not acceptable". [MENTION=6799753]lowkey13[/MENTION] has covered this in better detail, but you are bringing moral relativism to an argument that is mostly centered around sexualized violence. Call both sides equally bad in their extremism is a false equivalence of the dangerous. "People who spring rape scenarios on players and then lie about in an interview with the guy who wrote 'In Defense of Rape' should not be allowed to be in our hobby" is not the moral or extreme equivalent to "LOL great job owning the libs!" and the latter are explicitly counting on well meaning people making that mistake.

"I think there is a lot of cruelty being expressed in this thread and people don't see it, because they think they are so correct. Personally I am not a big fan of cruelty." [MENTION=19675]Dannyalcatraz[/MENTION] covered this in a point I see you have not responded to yet, in that:

Foreseeable repercussions for actions =/= cruelty.

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I don't really have anything else to add to that.

Bedrockgames said:

Just based on the description, it was off-putting but I think adults shouldn't be crying over that sort of thing.

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This is pointless. If you don't understand how sexualized violence can be traumatizing, and don't understand the nature of trauma to the extent that you'd shame people for crying over it? In the middle of you arguing that shaming people for springing rape scenarios on people is bad? You are existing in mind frame that is so far removed from where anybody and everybody who has tried explaining this to you is that there is absolutely no point in any of us continuing to waste energy on it. Whether you think you are being well meaning or not, you are not. I'm not going to accuse you of arguing in bad faith, but honestly the alternative frightens me. Quite frankly, your moral compass, and particularly your sense of empathy and compassion, is broken. Address that first, and then we can continue this conversation.

Gradine said:

This is pointless. If you don't understand how sexualized violence can be traumatizing, and don't understand the nature of trauma to the extent that you'd shame people for crying over it? In the middle of you arguing that shaming people for springing rape scenarios on people is bad? You are existing in mind frame that is so far removed from where anybody and everybody who has tried explaining this to you is that there is absolutely no point in any of us continuing to waste energy on it. Whether you think you are being well meaning or not, you are not. I'm not going to accuse you of arguing in bad faith, but honestly the alternative frightens me. Quite frankly, your moral compass, and particularly your sense of empathy and compassion, is broken. Address that first, and then we can continue this conversation.

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It raises my suspicion a bit of the account. I can't possibly be the only one who finds this kind of behavior a bit child-like (or possible the kind of thing you might see in high schools). Yes, people sometimes cry because they were traumatized. In my experience that isn't the most common reaction. But people also sometimes seek attention and this kind of incident, especially when the people involved in helping resolve it are crying as well, strikes me as potentially attention seeking.

Gradine said:

. Whether you think you are being well meaning or not, you are not. I'm not going to accuse you of arguing in bad faith, but honestly the alternative frightens me.

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I am being well meaning. I am also being honest. I think a lot of people here might not be accustomed to honesty of opinion.

Bedrockgames said:

It raises my suspicion a bit of the account. I can't possibly be the only one who finds this kind of behavior a bit child-like (or possible the kind of thing you might see in high schools). Yes, people sometimes cry because they were traumatized. In my experience that isn't the most common reaction. But people also sometimes seek attention and this kind of incident, especially when the people involved in helping resolve it are crying as well, strikes me as potentially attention seeking.

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Its also a bit telling that you seem more upset that someone might be 'attention seeking' by overstating how much an incident affected them then someone in a public venue telling/implying to the players that their characters were Raped.