Players choose what their PCs do . . .

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
I was trying to say that, if you are in complete control, you always have the ability to say, "Nah, this has no impact," and so there is never a challenge to the core. Challenge does not happen in a position of certainty.

Do you know what future reprecussions your characters choice will hold? Then it's not done in a position of certainty. It's only certain in this moment which is what every choice in real life is like too. Are real life choices not challenging?
 

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FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Oh, I see. You're trying to look at the choice itself as a challenge. I was looking at the choice as a small component of a larger challenge. Or, really, a piece of two larger challenges, with the dilemma being that choice A gets you closer to succeeding at the first challenge, but further from succeeding at the second, and vice versa. So the two challenges are: a) maintain your purity, and b) get the girl. (For whatever larger purpose both serve.)

I think I characterized his view of challenge as too narrow. Wouldn't you agree?
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
I certainly find it interesting that @FrogReaver and @Maxperson are fine with the maiden melting a PC's heart of the GM has written down (i) that the maiden has such a special ability and (ii) it allows a saving throw. Given that there's no rule in D&D that limits the special abilities a GM can place on a creature or NPC, and no rules that limit the number of saves s/he can call for, this seems like a strange view to take - what you call a comfort blanket or even a fetish.

The view is simply that once you designate that said NPC is special then then we are open to them having special influence on our PC's. Without that special designation then it fails. "Magic" is the fill in word that most people use to designate this special concept, but it's really not about magicalness per se, it's about specialness.

It's nothing hard or complicated to understand ;)
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Oh, I see. You're trying to look at the choice itself as a challenge. I was looking at the choice as a small component of a larger challenge. Or, really, a piece of two larger challenges, with the dilemma being that choice A gets you closer to succeeding at the first challenge, but further from succeeding at the second, and vice versa. So the two challenges are: a) maintain your purity, and b) get the girl. (For whatever larger purpose both serve.)

The choice is what's been presented as the challenge. This is the first instance of the example choice being part of a larger, interconnected story. Even there, I'm not clear on what you think the challenge is, or how the choice leads to success or failure at the challenge rather than just another part of a larger choice tree. I can see choice as part of an actual challenge only if you're making the choice blind or partly blind as to whether or not it will lead to ultimate success at the overarching goal. What I don't see is your duality of challenge being either maintain your purity or get the girl -- this is a naked choice, not a challenge. There's no fail state here, nor is there a success state, it's just a choice between two different states.

To illuminate, swap your goals to a) get the piece of pumpkin pie, and b) get the piece of apple pie. Either way you get a piece of pie and don't get the other, but this isn't a challenge, it's just a choice. For there to be an actual challenge, you have to be able to fail at what you attempt, and there's no attempt here, just a choice between outcomes.

As I say above, I can see choice being part of a larger challenge tree, where your choice of pie is actually part of a larger goal, but that goal cannot be determining which pie you get, it has to be something that the choice of pie affects. Even then, depending on how it's set up, the nature of the goal may still not be a challenge. If it's just tiered choices, where the outcome that's achieved is directly in line with the choices made, then this isn't a challenge. If the result is something that has a fail state -- you don't get what you want -- and a success state -- you do get what you want -- then it's a challenge. I'm having a difficult time envisioning such a challenge based on choice alone and without any mechanic to determine a result. Even diceless systems have mechanics to determine results.

All this isn't to say that the above play isn't fun -- it is. I put hard choices in front of my players all the time. Nor is it to say that you can't have character development using this play -- you clearly can. What it says is that it's not a challenge and you aren't putting your concept of the character at risk with this kind of play. In other words, it's part and parcel of the play where the player declares their intended actions only and the GM decides the results vice being able to make rich action declarations on behalf of the character where both the action and the outcome are determined. In this play, you're staking that action AND outcome and a failure may mean you get both a different action and outcome than you intended, because that's what was at stake.

I tried earlier to explore what kind of play this might be, and no one except [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] has bothered to engage it. I suppose it fell flat for the rest of you, either in conceiving the play presented or caring about it.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
The choice is what's been presented as the challenge. This is the first instance of the example choice being part of a larger, interconnected story. Even there, I'm not clear on what you think the challenge is, or how the choice leads to success or failure at the challenge rather than just another part of a larger choice tree. I can see choice as part of an actual challenge only if you're making the choice blind or partly blind as to whether or not it will lead to ultimate success at the overarching goal. What I don't see is your duality of challenge being either maintain your purity or get the girl -- this is a naked choice, not a challenge. There's no fail state here, nor is there a success state, it's just a choice between two different states.

failure = not being able to obtain both states at the same time.
 

generic

On that metempsychosis tweak
And you wonder why we read into your post that you would not condone a player doing that at your table. I’d say we were right on all counts...

And we wonder why you always disagree with everyone on the boards.

Once again, false premise looking for an argument.

Yes, I do pass judgement on the idea that saying "lol, magic sword duh" is silly, but I don't tell the player this, and I allow them to do whatever they want to do.

I'd say you were wrong on all counts.

Read my posts.

Please, just read them.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
And we wonder why you always disagree with everyone on the boards.

Once again, false premise looking for an argument.

LOL. This is too funny. You say that and then your very next sentence you agree with the premise you just called false.

Yes, I do pass judgement on the idea that saying "lol, magic sword duh" is silly,

So am I reading your posts enough?
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
Just thought I'd read some more of your posts...

And we wonder why you always disagree with everyone on the boards.

On this thread alone there are multiple people who agree with me on quite a bit. Is this another moment where what you say and what you mean are two different things?
 


FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
There's a problem with the Excalibur example, in that a sword like Excalibur can reasonably be expected to provide some mechanical combat benefits to its wielder and thus the player has to choose between maintaining a character concept or gaining some combat benefits - a non-mechanics option vs a mechanics one. This somewhat takes the choice out-of-character.

I choose the Excalibur example because any knight is going to know it's a special sword that will greatly benefit them in combat. What you refer to as solely player knowledge is also character knowledge in this example.
 

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