D&D 5E What do we know about The Sundering?

sanishiver said:

(snip) WotC are the ones that approached Salvatore, Greenwood, et al., and asked them in so many words, “How do we fix the Realms?” Note these authors (not just Savlatore) have ongoing stories in the Realms and one of the Realms’ major themes is that it changes. It’s not a static place.

Stories are told in a linear fashion and there’s no evidence anyone wanted to jump back in time. The fix for the Realms involves moving the timeline forward. (snip)

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My point is that the most logical way to appease the Realms fans is to roll back to 1375 DR. You're only "invalidating" a couple of game products.

The real impetus to continue advancing the timeline past 1485 DR or so was the fact that the novels provide more profit than the TTRPG.

Scrivener of Doom said:

My point is that the most logical way to appease the Realms fans is to roll back to 1375 DR. You're only "invalidating" a couple of game products.

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Don't forget those moneymaking novels you mentioned.

I see your point, but I don't agree. Further, I think older fans of the Realms are looser in their views.

If the OP will allow us the privilege of conjecture vis-a-vis the Sundering's purpose, then I think WotC is working to create a post-Sundering Realms that's very much the feel and flavor of the late 1300s, but set in the late 1400s, with the goal of capturing a new audience.

Certainly there will be enough there to make older fans happy, but that minor portion of the Realms fanbase consisting of older fans who adamantly insist on a leap back in time won't be happy, and so won't come along.

And that's OK, because WotC already lost them five going on six ago.

Scrivener of Doom said:

The real impetus to continue advancing the timeline past 1485 DR or so was the fact that the novels provide more profit than the TTRPG.

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I don't doubt WotC likes to make money, just as I'm certain the relative few Realms sourcebooks introduced in the 4E era don't outweigh the novels in terms of sales.

If both the 4E sourcebooks and novels were selling poorly, I think WotC would've taken a hard look at jumping back in time.

AKAIK the novels are doing well enough. I hear the Neverwinter Campaign Setting book sold pretty good (not sure about the Undermountain and Menzoberanzan books).

However I'm pretty sure that if WotC fired a peremptory shot across the bow of the designers/authors by saying, "We need you to fix the Realms, but we want you to do it by going back in time," I'm certain the designers/authors would've balked, if not walked out.

I get the strong sense they value continuity above all else.

What are Abir and Toril?

You may be right, Sanishiver.

Like you, I am only relying on anecdotal evidence for my opinions. The only things I know for certain are: 1. the 4E Realms are unpopular (but I like 'em ) and 2. novels make more money than TTRPGs. The rest is me trying to read between the lines.

@fjw70 : Toril is the original name for the planet on which the Forgotten Realms are set. It was renamed Abeir-Toril in the Old Grey Box in order to ensure that the planet was the first thing listed in the gazetteer. Abeir was a name that Jeff Grubb came up with (co-author with Ed of the OGB) and may have been the name of his own homebrewed campaign world.

CORRECTION (per Mercurius): Ed did NOT contribute the Toril name. Oops.

For 4E it was retconned that Abeir and Toril were once one world but split into two as a result of the Dawn War between the primordials and the gods. The primordials got Abeir and the gods got Toril but the Spellplague sort of mashed the two together to explain the 4E differences.

Anyway, that's the short version.

According to the Source of All Truth (aka Wikipedia), "Toril" is actually the name of Jeff Grubb's campaign setting. Not sure what Ed Greenwood's world was called, other than the FR.

Speaking of Mr. Greenwood, I was originally under the impression that the gray box was pure Greenwoodian, but then found at some time ago that even that was altered somewhat from his home campaign setting. Do we know how its different? Are there any maps out there of the 'true" (Greenwoodian) Realms?

I mean, I know that adding Maztica, Kara-Tur, Al-Qadim etc are all TSR inventions - brought in during 2e, I believe. But what of the gray box version? How much is Greenwood and how much not? I'm fairly certain that the Moonshaes are Doug Niles, but other than that...

I am a HUGE Forgotten Realms fan, have been for ages, and it's going to take a lot to get the stench out of my nose that was 4e Forgotten Realms.

SoD, thanks for the Realms snapshot.

I solved all these issues by getting a copy of the "Old Grey Box" off EBay and starting a PF game. No 4E, no Spellplague, no overpowered demi-gods on every street corner no 150 supplements etc. In essence, what I should have done back in 2e instead of selling all my FR books.

Mercurius said:

I mean, I know that adding Maztica, Kara-Tur, Al-Qadim etc are all TSR inventions - brought in during 2e, I believe. But what of the gray box version? How much is Greenwood and how much not? I'm fairly certain that the Moonshaes are Doug Niles, but other than that...

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from Candlekeep foruns I learned that Vaasa and Damara are not. TSR removed parts of the Great Glacier to open space to these two nations, which were created to the Bloodstone Pass serie of adventures.

Mercurius said:

But what of the gray box version? How much is Greenwood and how much not? I'm fairly certain that the Moonshaes are Doug Niles, but other than that...

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I don't know that the Weave is mentioned in the Old Gray Box (OGB), but IIRC Greenwood didn't come up with that term. Rather, Julia Martin invented it.

Originally Mystra was not the uber-goddess of all magic and Guardian of the Weave. That roll had been assigned to Lurue in Ed's original Realms. The folks at TSR, desiring a human-oriented Realms that fit with AD&D's humanocentric view, changed it.

Some of Ed's original Realms maps and drawings can be found in "Ed Greenwood Presents: Elminster's Forgotten Realms".