More uses for ability scores?

Tales and Chronicles · May 25, 2019

dnd4vr said:
Thanks. Like I said there nothing inherently wrong with doing it the other way, but it would change the nature and feel for magic use quite a bit in many cases. I agree that finding a universal and elegant solution would be best. I'll continue to think on it as well and maybe one of us will come up with a good mechanic.

What if you do not add your proficiency to your spell attack bonus, making it maximum of 1d20+5 (+/- magic items)? In 4e non-weapon attack (implement attacks) did add a weapon proficiency bonus to the attack roll.

Charlaquin · May 25, 2019

vincegetorix said:
What if you do not add your proficiency to your spell attack bonus, making it maximum of 1d20+5 (+/- magic items)? In 4e non-weapon attack (implement attacks) did add a weapon proficiency bonus to the attack roll.

That might work. It would still leave spells generally more likely to successfully affect the target than they are by default, but not by as much. At 13th-16th level your prof bonus would finally catch up with the discrepancy, and at 17th-20th you’d Actually have a harder time landing spells. But most games aren’t likely to go that high.

I mean, the ideal version of attacker-always-rolls, if you want that, would be to keep spell attacks as 1d20 + mod + prof and make ability defenses 14 + mod (+ save prof if you have it). That would perfectly replicate the probabilities of success in 5e and just change who does the rolling, which sounds like was an appealing idea to you. But then we’re back to square 1 on making odd-numbered ability scores matter.

DND_Reborn · May 25, 2019

vincegetorix said:
What if you do not add your proficiency to your spell attack bonus, making it maximum of 1d20+5 (+/- magic items)? In 4e non-weapon attack (implement attacks) did add a weapon proficiency bonus to the attack roll.

The real issue is that the current system only moves 5% per two points (because a 14 and 15 DEX offer the same modifier), as where going with straight ability scores is a 1 point per 5% change. If you remove proficiency bonus (or keep it a static +2) that might work, but then very high ability scores would be impossible without something to assist the spellcaster.

Keep in mind this also raises the point of normal attacks against AC. Why is the base AC 10? Because the base "normal" DEX is 10. If you implement such a system for casting, why not use it for combat? Armor could work as damage reduction (which is more realistic). I guess it all comes down to nailing exactly what you want to accomplish.

Charlaquin said:
That might work. It would still leave spells generally more likely to successfully affect the target than they are by default, but not by as much. At 13th-16th level your prof bonus would finally catch up with the discrepancy, and at 17th-20th you’d Actually have a harder time landing spells. But most games aren’t likely to go that high.

I mean, the ideal version of attacker-always-rolls, if you want that, would be to keep spell attacks as 1d20 + mod + prof and make ability defenses 14 + mod (+ save prof if you have it). That would perfectly replicate the probabilities of success in 5e and just change who does the rolling, which sounds like was an appealing idea to you. But then we’re back to square 1 on making odd-numbered ability scores matter.

Using the modifier instead of the ability score is good, but still gets away from the point of the OP: how to use the raw scores and not the modifiers for everything. I know this is a slightly different issue, so maybe that isn't part of it, but if it is you're getting away from that issue. As you said, it takes you back to square one...

Tales and Chronicles · May 26, 2019

Ok, next time a run a regular 5e game (I run AiME for the moment) I'll try this:

Spell attack roll: 1d20+spellcasting stat (no prof.) against the target's specified statscore. Ongoing effects are tested at the end of the creature's turn with a flat d20 against a DC 11. Save proficiency from classes is not a thing. Paladin aura bonus are bonus to the flat d20 roll for ongoing effects. Advantage on a save gives instead disadvantage to the attacker against specified stat.

Tales and Chronicles · May 26, 2019

vincegetorix said:
Ok, next time a run a regular 5e game (I run AiME for the moment) I'll try this:

Spell attack roll: 1d20+spellcasting stat (no prof.) against the target's specified statscore. Ongoing effects are tested at the end of the creature's turn with a flat d20 against a DC 11. Save proficiency from classes is not a thing. Paladin aura bonus are bonus to the flat d20 roll for ongoing effects. Advantage on a save gives instead disadvantage to the attacker against specified stat.

Edit: This makes me think: I'll also need to give an attack roll to ''save'' traps and some diseases/poisons.

DND_Reborn · May 26, 2019

Here's an idea: let the players make all rolls. If they are casting, allow them to attack, if they are the target, let them save. This way they are always more engaged. You could do the same thing for attacks. If they are attacking, they roll to hit. If they are being attacked, they roll to defend. If you want to give the players the edge, let them win all ties regardless of which side (attack/defend) they are on.

5ekyu · May 26, 2019

dnd4vr said:
Here's an idea: let the players make all rolls. If they are casting, allow them to attack, if they are the target, let them save. This way they are always more engaged. You could do the same thing for attacks. If they are attacking, they roll to hit. If they are being attacked, they roll to defend. If you want to give the players the edge, let them win all ties regardless of which side (attack/defend) they are on.

I have done this with multiple systems for decades and in two (now three) 5e based campaigns as well. The NPCs are always the passive scores and the players rolling for each resolution.

Orc shoots at PC, player rolls d20 + AC vs orc attack's threat DC.

PC casts Command at Orc, player rolls d20 + spell's save DC vs Orc's Wisdom DC.

As GM, I just have the static DCs on the NPC notes. I never touch a die.

I even have them roll their own damage.

Works great as they are seen as the "active" every time.

I call it PAR - players always roll.

Tales and Chronicles · May 26, 2019

5ekyu said:
I have done this with multiple systems for decades and in two (now three) 5e based campaigns as well. The NPCs are always the passive scores and the players rolling for each resolution.

Orc shoots at PC, player rolls d20 + AC vs orc attack's threat DC.

PC casts Command at Orc, player rolls d20 + spell's save DC vs Orc's Wisdom DC.

As GM, I just have the static DCs on the NPC notes. I never touch a die.

I even have them roll their own damage.

Works great as they are seen as the "active" every time.

I call it PAR - players always roll.

Would you mind giving us the method you use to calculate the Threat DC of a creature? Is a very interesting idea.

DND_Reborn · May 26, 2019

vincegetorix said:
Would you mind giving us the method you use to calculate the Threat DC of a creature? Is a very interesting idea.

I would think you would use 10 + attack bonus? or maybe 11 + attack bonus... Actually, I think 11 + attack bonus would work better for the mechanics.

The AC mod could be AC - 10 and you add d20, sort of like a saving throw.

Maybe 5ekyu has other ideas though.

5ekyu · May 26, 2019

dnd4vr said:
I would think you would use 10 + attack bonus? or maybe 11 + attack bonus... Actually, I think 11 + attack bonus would work better for the mechanics.

The AC mod could be AC - 10 and you add d20, sort of like a saving throw.

Maybe 5ekyu has other ideas though.

Take the creatures attack bonus and add 22 to get the threat DC.
For the crearure's resistance, the same number 22 + their save bonus.

Remember, like all std checks, the PC rolling vs DC, getting equal to the threat DC is success for the PC - PC is "missed" or spell succeeds. (That's where the stray 2 in the 22 comes out of, the fact that ties go to the roller.)

Odds end up exactly the same as the regular output in system, no chsnges.

So for example
PC with AC 16 and +6 attack roll and spell DC 12 vs Orc with AC 18, an attack bonus of +7 and a save bonus of +1.

Normal rules
Orc attacks PC with d20+7 vs AC 16 and ***hits the PC*** on 9 or better (60%) if the orc rolls a nat 1 auto-miss (I add a bit more descriptive) and on a roll of nat 20 the hit crits.

PAR
Orc attacks PC with threats DC of 29 (22+7). PC makes "armor roll" d20+16 and ***avoids or blocks the hit *** on a 13 or better (40%). On a roll of nat 1, the attack crits. On a roll of nat 20, auto succeed snd add narrative flourish.

More uses for ability scores?

Tales and Chronicles

Jewel of the North, formerly know as vincegetorix

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin

Tales and Chronicles

Jewel of the North, formerly know as vincegetorix

Tales and Chronicles

Jewel of the North, formerly know as vincegetorix

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin

5ekyu

Hero

Tales and Chronicles

Jewel of the North, formerly know as vincegetorix

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin

5ekyu

Hero

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