Fighter Subclass: The Bravura! (INT-based, tactical, non-magical)

Guest 6801328 · Jan 24, 2018

mellored said:
And a more generic explosive dive.
Explosive Dive:
When you are targeted by an attack or succeed on a Dexterity saving throw, you can move up to half your speed, without provoking an Opportunity attack, and land prone at the end of this movement. This movement can potentially get you out of range, causing the attack or effect to be wasted.

I like Prone as a cost. A more general version is: "When you are required to make a Dexterity save versus an area effect, you can use a reaction to dive out of the way. You get Advantage on the saving throw*, but you end the turn Prone."

*Alternately it could apply only to damaging spells, and reduce damage to half or none.

Rod Staffwand · Jan 25, 2018

I haven't had a chance to check in on this thread in a while. Glad to see some hearty discussion on it.

I would defend the creation of a INT-forward fighter class. It seems to me that an intelligent person would find a way to put that intelligence to use in combat and develop complementary fighting style to compete against stronger and faster opponents. While strength and speed are of clear use in combat, outwitting your opponent does have precedence (especially in the action movie milieu). Plus, who says the high INT people in the world must be wizards? Give them some career options!

As for the design itself, I'm still not sold on the Poetry in Motion attack trade-off. What happens if they don't attack, but help, disengage, cast a spell or take some other action? What if they cast a spell that allows them an attack as part of the casting action?

I actually think the design would be stronger if you dropped this part and kept the move/contingency effects under control. The one reaction per turn helps. Requiring specific positioning helps. Carefully restricting triggers helps. Requiring allies to spend their reactions helps.

Guest 6801328 · Jan 25, 2018

I just updated the original post with a whole slew of changes. I ended up scaling back and simplifying a bunch of the ideas, to put it more in line with what I think is balanced and reasonable.

Plus a new idea for Overreaction. I've never loved outright Action granting. Check out the new version: makes interesting combos possible.

There are a couple of places where secondary ability scores come into play, but you don't have to go MAD to play this.

Wednesday Boy · Jan 25, 2018

A few thoughts after looking at the revised version:

"For each reaction after the first you must forfeit a weapon attack on your next turn, and once you do so you must take the Attack action on your next turn, even if you have no remaining attacks."

I may be misinterpreting this but it sounds too restrictive. Why does using reactions require you to attack on the next round?

It would be nice to start with more contingencies. Four levels seems like too long to wait to get your second contingency. I don't have a keen eye for balance so maybe having more is overbalancing. Many of the contingencies seem specific enough that they would be used infrequently within an encounter or between encounters. Giving the character more contingencies would increase its breadth and make it more fun to me.

Again, I'm not sure about the balance but I would rather see the subclass get So Crazy It Just Might Work at 7th level instead of having to wait until 10th. It's an evocative feature that gives it a much needed out of combat ability, so I wouldn't wait until 10th to give it to them.

Guest 6801328 · Jan 25, 2018

Wednesday Boy said:
A few thoughts after looking at the revised version:

"For each reaction after the first you must forfeit a weapon attack on your next turn, and once you do so you must take the Attack action on your next turn, even if you have no remaining attacks."

I may be misinterpreting this but it sounds too restrictive. Why does using reactions require you to attack on the next round?

It's for balance, not logic. Let's say you're a Bravura 11/Wizard 9. Should you get to forfeit 2 of your 3 attacks for reactions, and then also get to cast a spell on your turn?

It would be nice to start with more contingencies.

Four levels seems like too long to wait to get your second contingency. I don't have a keen eye for balance so maybe having more is overbalancing. Many of the contingencies seem specific enough that they would be used infrequently within an encounter or between encounters. Giving the character more contingencies would increase its breadth and make it more fun to me.

That was a last-second change. You actually get two, including the ability to Help as a reaction. Plus there's a lot of incentive to take Feats with reactions, as well as Protection fighting style.

But maybe it should still be 2 + Help as reaction. I'm not set in stone on this.

Again, I'm not sure about the balance but I would rather see the subclass get So Crazy It Just Might Work at 7th level instead of having to wait until 10th. It's an evocative feature that gives it a much needed out of combat ability, so I wouldn't wait until 10th to give it to them.

I tend to agree. And in other Fighter subclasses level 7 is typically a non-combat ability. My worry is that it will be hard to actually use these reactions if you can't get some movement in.

Will have to ponder this one.

Maybe since I've nerfed it in other places the movement could start at level 3. That would leave level 10 for another bonus.

The Old Crow · Jan 25, 2018

I wasn't sure about the whole reaction based fighter paying on credit thing to start with, but I have come around. I like the trade in of an attack, and the requirement to take the Attack Action the next turn.

More contingencies would be nice, since many of them are situational and may not come up often, barring Double Team (which will probably be the most oft taken first contingency, since it is the easiest to use). I can see the problem you are trying to combat with feats and such that grant reactions, but I don't think the power of the Bravura should necessarily come from buying the feat or the "correct" build. If some builds are already going crazy spending their reactions because of their feats and fighting style, I don't think it would hurt to let the other Bravuras spend their reactions on their contingencies in more situations.

The way Poetry in Motion is worded, a heavy armor Bravura would effectively get no 7th level feature. I am also not sure what "if that reaction has a range requirement" is supposed to mean.

I also support So Crazy It Just Might Work moving to 7th. It is cool, can be used in or out of combat, and highlights what the Bravura is all about.

Wednesday Boy · Jan 25, 2018

Elfcrusher said:
It's for balance, not logic. Let's say you're a Bravura 11/Wizard 9. Should you get to forfeit 2 of your 3 attacks for reactions, and then also get to cast a spell on your turn?

Right, right. That makes sense since all of your attacks are on one action. I was thinking each attack was an individual action.

Guest 6801328 · Jan 25, 2018

The Old Crow said:
I wasn't sure about the whole reaction based fighter paying on credit thing to start with, but I have come around. I like the trade in of an attack, and the requirement to take the Attack Action the next turn.

More contingencies would be nice, since many of them are situational and may not come up often, barring Double Team (which will probably be the most oft taken first contingency, since it is the easiest to use). I can see the problem you are trying to combat with feats and such that grant reactions, but I don't think the power of the Bravura should necessarily come from buying the feat or the "correct" build. If some builds are already going crazy spending their reactions because of their feats and fighting style, I don't think it would hurt to let the other Bravuras spend their reactions on their contingencies in more situations.

The way Poetry in Motion is worded, a heavy armor Bravura would effectively get no 7th level feature. I am also not sure what "if that reaction has a range requirement" is supposed to mean.

I also support So Crazy It Just Might Work moving to 7th. It is cool, can be used in or out of combat, and highlights what the Bravura is all about.

Great feedback. Thanks.

The "if that reaction has a range requirement" means that if you have to be within 5' to take a reaction you can use this movement to get there. What I was trying to avoid was "I'm already within 5' but, hey, thanks for the free bonus movement!" Maybe that's not necessary. I will try to clean it up. Thanks.

Guest 6801328 · Jan 25, 2018

Ok, updates:

Baked the 5' movement into "Legendary Moves" at level 3.
2 + 1 initial Contingencies
Brought back Contingencies...because it's a great word...to refer to the list of reactions that are available to Bravurae!(tm). They are still reactions, though.
Moved "So Crazy It Just Might Work" (best ability name ever) to level 7.
Moved Double Team to the 10th level ability. (Not going to be a popular move, but I think it's better. Samurai doesn't get it until there, either. I think...)
Added "Forward Observer" to Contingencies.
Renamed Legendary Moves to Tactical Awareness
Added placeholder for "Exit Strategy" contingency (feedback desired)

mellored · Jan 25, 2018

I agree with the above.

Help+2 choices feels better than 1 choice.

Contingencies are a too niche.
Also, interrupting someone else's turn, rolling your own dice, resolving your own stats, and then resoloving the origional roll takes too much time and can add to confusion. It was something 4e ran into. I've seen people forget who's turn it was after a cascade of reactions and die rolls. So i would keep the reactions simple form a game flow perspective, avoiding any of your own d20's. I also retract my above idea for a contested shove for the same reason.

If you don't want the multi-armor-teir, and bonus movement is 1/round (probably a good idea), then I'd move it to level 3. It would feel wierd switching armor at level 7.
Hmm... maybe...
"While not in Heavy armor, you have a pool of extra movement equal to your Bravura! level (minimum 5') that you can use when you take a reaction. This movement can allow you to get into range to trigger the reaction. You regain this movement at the end of your turn." (wording might still need work).

Then you can move Crazy Plan to 7.

Indomitable comes in at 9. So maybe something with that at 10.

If you're going to keep with the action surge for reactions, I would add movement as well. Maybe move it to 10 (along with the indomitable thing) and leave 15 as just the bonus -> reaction.

Edit: Ninja'd.

Fighter Subclass: The Bravura! (INT-based, tactical, non-magical)

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Rod Staffwand

aka Ermlaspur Flormbator

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Wednesday Boy

The Nerd WhoFell to Earth

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The Old Crow

Explorer

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The Nerd WhoFell to Earth

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mellored

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