Vecna v Acererak v Larloch? Who's The Most Powerful Lich?

Forgotten Realms creator Ed Greenwood was recently asked who was the most powerful lich: Vecna, Acererak, or Larloch. Here was his reply!

Forgotten Realms creator Ed Greenwood was recently asked who was the most powerful lich: Vecna, Acererak, or Larloch. Here was his reply!

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"Heh. I've been asked this many times before, and although part of me wonders what's the point of all "who's more powerful?" questions, the answer is: it depends. In terms of raw personal BATTLE power, the answer is likely Vecna. Though so much of his power is vested in his Hand and his Eye that unless they can all be in one place, Larloch might pack more punch. Not that he would fight toe-to-toe in battle, because that isn't Larloch's way; he views liches who do that as idiot failures. Larloch's way is to manipulate from behind the scenes to lead anyone seeking him, or trying to cross him, astray, so they never come into contact with him. If need be, he'd hurl his many, many servitor liches at them, most of whom are personally more powerful than Acererak.

Larloch and Vecna both have a wider reach and influence on the worlds around them than Acererak, so if you're measuring that way, Acererak is left behind. But when it comes to measuring Larloch and Vecna against each other in terms of influence, it's a matter of style: Vecna has the greater fear-reputation and is "noisier," and Larloch is more the master manipulator, who works unseen. As in, you may never know how much he's affected you. I can only go by what Elminster (and on rare occasions Storm, or Laeral, or Volo[!]) tell me of the Realms, and the three Chosen of Mystra all think Larloch (even wherever he is now, bested by the Srinshee) is the greater threat. As El put it, "Vecna is a bogeyman, and his relics do harm. Larloch undresses thee and ye never even know it." Larloch plays the longer game, and is more patient and empathic and has a greater understanding of the multiverse, whereas Vecna is more self-centered. I trust El's judgment, because I must; without it, none of us know ANYTHING about the Realms.

Acererak is feared throughout the multiverse because he's an almost-always-active destructive force. However, that's a one-trick pony. "Hah! I shall destroy you TWICE!!!" ;}"
 

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Zardnaar

Legend
The spell of Karsus didn't kill Mystral. We don't actually know if his spell would work. What it did when he targeted Mystral was disrupt the weave and she sacrificed herself to save it. Had he cast it on a different god, it might or might not have ultimately been successful. In fact, given that Mystral would have immediately known what he was doing as it was in her province as the goddess of magic, she could have blocked his access to the weave to prevent him from succeeding. His only chance of success was if he targeted a god other than Mystral, she allowed it to succeed, and the target failed the save if it even had to make one.

Even if Larloch knows the spell, and I don't see how as Karsus didn't likely teach it to him.(Oh, right. Mary Sue.) And even if he can somehow exceed the weaves power, which not even Mystra and the other gods can do(Doh! Mary Sue again). Casting the spell stands a very good chance of doing nothing(Unless Mary Sue).

The old Mystryl may not have had the powers of Mystara. Pantheon's merged after Netheril fell.

What Mystara could do also varied by editions. In 2E level 10+ magic would not work. Several of those spells we're redone in 3E via epic spellcasting rules which would technically allow them to work.

Not much is known about the spell, the write up of it is incomplete but I suspect it had no save and SR/MR would not apply. I also suspect it would have been undetectable by Mystryl.

If the story called for it I bet the spell would work in modern Faerun. It's basically power word kill god plus loot them powers.

Larloch might not be high enough level to cast it though and it was a previous poster that said Larloch knew all the Netherise spells.

As I said Vecna over Larloch, and Larloch over Acererak.

Was a big FR fan to the spellplague. Starting to prefer the more retrained Grewhawk.

Edit" moot point Larloch can't cast Karsuss Avatar he isn't powerful enough.
 
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Mirtek

Hero
Even so, the spell was never intended to permanently steal the power of a deity, only to temporarily "borrow" it. It would also likely kill the caster at the end, while leaving the deity none the worse for wear.

This was mentioned in the flavor Text in NEoM multiple times. Only the incomplete rules write up after the fluff suddenly stated an unlimited duration.

However even that was corrected when this incomplete rules write up was reprinted in P&P.

Mystryl could have chosen to just sit out possession by Karsus she only chose suicide to end the spell sooner. She figured dying and reincarnating through one of her safety meassures would be easier on the weave than waiting out the full spell duration
 

Mirtek

Hero
Also the novel later portrayed Karsus as a power hungry mad man, who truly thought divine ascension. Which was the direct opposite of what the Netheril: Empire of Magic game supplement stated
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Also the novel later portrayed Karsus as a power hungry mad man, who truly thought divine ascension. Which was the direct opposite of what the Netheril: Empire of Magic game supplement stated

Late TSR didn't have much internal consistency. Darksun was full of stuff like this.
 

Iry

Hero
Don't count out Acererak, his ritual from Return to the Tomb of Horrors involved merging his consciousness with the Negative Energy Plane itself so he could control any undead anywhere in the multiverse whenever he wanted. Any undead here to me means just that -- even guys like Strahd von Zarovich, Lord Soth, Azalin, and yes, Larloch get to be Acererak's puppet if he succeeds. When the PCs finally confront him, he just needs to absorb three more souls to achieve this, which he might very well get from the party.
He never would have succeeded. There were way too many powerful beings who can and would stop him. The only way to reconcile it is to assume the adventurers that beat him were knowingly or unknowingly part of the plan to stop Acererak.
 

Dausuul

Legend
Don't count out Acererak, his ritual from Return to the Tomb of Horrors involved merging his consciousness with the Negative Energy Plane itself so he could control any undead anywhere in the multiverse whenever he wanted. Any undead here to me means just that -- even guys like Strahd von Zarovich, Lord Soth, Azalin, and yes, Larloch get to be Acererak's puppet if he succeeds. When the PCs finally confront him, he just needs to absorb three more souls to achieve this, which he might very well get from the party.
Every lich has an insane scheme to achieve ultimate power. And every lich that shows up in an adventure or novel comes within moments of completing its insane scheme, only to be foiled by adventurers at the last minute.

As I said before, Acererak gets style points for having more cool and interesting schemes than most; but, Colonel Xykon's Secret Recipe notwithstanding, style does not translate into actual power. Where power is concerned, you get zero credit for a failed scheme, no matter how close you came to pulling it off. The only scheme that counts is one that you have really, truly, 100% pulled off and reaped the rewards.

Vecna has a list of failed schemes as long as your arm. His diary is as thick as the dictionary and every page starts with "Almost achieved supreme cosmic power today, foiled by adventurers." But, for all of that, he has succeeded in achieving godhood. That--not the plots that he almost pulled off but fell short--is what makes him the most powerful of the three.

It's tough to compare Acererak to Larloch on raw personal power, since we have no 5E stats for Larloch that I know of. But, setting that aside, Acererak tends to be a loner, while Larloch has an immense network of minions and allies. They may be confined to the Realms, but they are still power to be reckoned with. So I would rank Larloch ahead on that score (even though I agree that Larloch exudes "Ed Greenwood's personal power fantasy," has no significant accomplishments to his name, and really shouldn't be included in any list of Noteworthy Liches).
 
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Iry

Hero
is DIVINITY so completely devalued that we're all just skipping past it now? ;)
Partially. FR divinity seems to be much stronger than Oerth or Krynn divinity. But the blame for that lies squarely upon FR power creep and is not what I would consider a good thing.
 

SDN

First Post
Define "messing".

I suspect far more characters have died messing around w/Acererak and his abode than the other two.

When we played through the original Tomb of Horrors, we didn't go past the front doors. Since they were 10' by 10' by 1 foot thick solid mithril from the description, we took them both, loaded them onto our ship, and went back to buy Greyhawk.

The GM just sat there abusing his scotch for about 15 minutes......:lol::lol::lol:
 

The Dragon was one level higher. Both were roughly on par with avatars of the FR God's. Mystra avatar in 2E was a level 40/40 wizard/cleric with unlimited.

spells. Mystra is one of the more powerful FR God's though.

Dregoth would be weaker than Vecna more powerful than Acerak,

Sounds right. Vecna's avatar form in "Die Vecna Die" would probably win against Dregoth due to its defenses (100% MR, psionics immunity, automatically makes saves against foes without a Vecna relic), though Dregoth might be able to beat him down through pure physical damage. Vecna with access to full god powers would certainly defeat Dregoth easily.

and it's a toss up with him and Larloch. Larloch is 3 levels higher as a wizard and is probably smarter, Dregoth level 29 psion as well though.

Athasian dragons get extra stuff well beyond their class levels, though.

Depends on the parameters of the conflict. In pure magic, Larloch would likely have the edge (depending on how Athasian psionic enchantments are considered to compare with FR Netheril magic) but Dregoth has incredible physical combat capability as well as his psionics.
 

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