D&D 4E 4e Clone − help create it!

I gotta agree with Zard. Your 8 abilities are a neat idea and might have a place in a heavily 4e-inspired system. But 4e had 6 abilities. Adding 2 more and shifting around what the abilities each do puts your system solidly out of 4e clone territory. And that’s ok, there’s nothing wrong with trying to evolve 4e’s design. I just don’t think you should call it a clone if that’s what you’re doing.

It also makes it harder for anyone else.

Stepb1 is picking an engine/foundation. We're not trying to reinvent the wheel a'la 5E. You're gonna be using powers, you're going to be using Microfeat etc but you need a frame to hang it on.

My home brew used 4E one then changed it to 5E. You can't design classes if you don't know the basic concepts.

Adding more abilities is madness. Tried that in 2E. I could understand reducing them to 3 perhaps, physical, agility, mental. Wouldn't do it but understandable.

This will not be a "clone" of 4E.

If you want to clone 4E, start by actually using 4E as the foundation. Every single section should already be filled out by what actually appears in 4E (using SRD terminology). Then, and only then, can modifications be made in an attempt to "balance" bits that are off.

You can't add the advantage/disadvantage mechanic and two new ability scores and call it a clone.

With extra ability scores I would have to go through and rewrite a lot of stuff that is compatible. That is not gonna happen lol. My feats would have to be revised as they are for a different game but I think a few can be used as is.

Some critters, I think I have 20 odd maybe 50 IDK. I wouldn't use the minion rule from 4E (at least that term anyway) but you can functionally make them minions by lowering the HP down. Obviously some tougher version can be done. From the other thread a lot of fiddly modifier will be dumped so +2, +1d4 and advantage/disadvantage would be used instead. The +2 flanking rule from 4E can be used for example (the 5E one is terrible). .

Encounter powers that target NADs could just be redone to dex saves or even advantage to hit. Its basically the same effect maybe even better if an encounter power (slide it in) grants advantage to hit. Ima bit sick this week so are off work so could theoretically have something playable in a day or two with preconstructed characters. Should early monster design just be the ones in LMoP? Or is there a free adventure on the guild one could bang out a quick adaption for?

Said characters would be level 1 precons but it would test out the basic stuff and use 5E engine (round structure etc).

Goblin 1/4
Small Humanoid LE
Initiative +1 Senses Perception +3; darkvision 60'
HD 1d6-1
HP 3
AC 14
Abilities Str 8 Dex 13 Con 9 Int 10 Wis 9 Cha 8
Saves Fortitude +3, Reflex +3 Will +1
Speed 30'
SQ: Bushwhacker, Sneaky, Stealthy
Alignment Lawful Evil Languages Common, Goblin
Skills Stealth +3
Equipment spear, short bow, small shield, leather armor, 10 arrows
Bushwhacker: During the first round of combat, the goblin has advantage on attack rolls against any target that has a lower initiative.
Sneaky: The goblin can attempt to hide at the end of a move as a bonus action
Stealthy Goblins have advantage on stealth checks

Hobgoblin CR 1/4
Medium Humanoid
Initiative +0 Senses Perception +4; darkvision 60'
HD 1d8+1 hp 6
AC 15
Saves Fortitude +5, Reflex +3 Will +2
Abilites Str 13 Dex 12 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 13
Speed 30'
Attack: Melee +3 Dmg 1d8+1 (longsword) or
+3 ranged damage 1d8+1 (longbow)
Alignment LE Languages Common, Goblin
Skills: Perception +2, Stealth +3
Equipment: longsword, large wooden shield, studded leather, longbow,

Traits
Phalanx: Hobgoblins gain +2 AC when fighting adjacent to another creature with this ability.

Disciplined: The hobgoblin chooses a creature within its reach. The next attack roll made against that target by a friendly creature that also has this trait has advantage.

Just checked I have 22 critters but they need revised a bit as they are from an earlier draft and have not been 5E so much. Mostly just number checking, a few are not OGL or even from D&D (Giaks, Helghast).

Kobold CR 1/8
Small Humanoid LE
Initiative +2 Senses Perception -1 darkvision 60'
HD 1d6-1 Hp 3
AC 12
Abilites Str 8 Dex 14 Con 9 Int 9 Wis 8 Cha 10
Saves Fortitude +3 Reflex +5 Will +1
Speed 30'
Attack Melee +4 Dagger Dmg 1d4-1 or
Ranged +4 Sling Dmg 1d4
SQ: Shifty
Trap Sense The Kobold gains a +2 bonus to all defenses against traps.
Alignment Lawful Evil Languages Common, Draconic
Skills Stealth+4, Thievery +4
Equipment 3 javelins
Traits
Shifty (bonus action) The Kobold moves 5’ and doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity.
Light Sensitivity: While in sunlight, the kobold has disadvantage on attack rolls.

@Zardnaar, @DEFCON 1, @Charlaquin

It is worth having balanced abilities.

Rather than the eight abilities, it is possible to have four abilities.

• Strength
• Dexterity
• Intelligence
• Charisma

In this four ability setup:

• Strength includes hit points.
• Dexterity handles jumping and climbing.
• Intelligence includes the five senses.
• Charisma includes willpower and empathy.

In this way:

• ‘Strength’ equals exactly 4e Fortitude
• ‘Dexterity’ equals 4e Reflex
• ‘Intelligence’ equals 4e Perception
• ‘Charisma’ equals 4e Will

So, for example, it is possible for the 4e clone to talk about the ‘Strength ability’ and the ‘Strength defense’.

Yaarel said:

@Zardnaar, @DEFCON 1, @Charlaquin

It is worth having balanced abilities.

Rather than the eight abilities, it is possible to have four abilities.

• Strength
• Dexterity
• Intelligence
• Charisma

In this four ability setup:

• Strength includes hit points.
• Dexterity handles jumping and climbing.
• Intelligence includes the five senses.
• Charisma includes willpower and empathy.

In this way:

• ‘Strength’ equals exactly 4e Fortitude
• ‘Dexterity’ equals 4e Reflex
• ‘Intelligence’ equals 4e Perception
• ‘Charisma’ equals 4e Will

So, for example, it is possible for the 4e clone to talk about the ‘Strength ability’ and the ‘Strength defense’.

Click to expand...

You could get it down to three if you really wanted IMHO.

For compatibility/what players expect I would just use the 6. All of the clones, Pathfinder, 13th Age etc all use it and there are lots of 5E players to borrow. Minimises having to explain everything. You can do whatever you want but I'm not rewriting everything I've done to invent a new game.

3 classes, 3 ability scores, and one saving throw could be used for a D&D cousin but its not really a clone and would be something else. After OSR and 5E I'm fundamentally opposed to making things more complex than they need to be for no good reason especially when there is other options.

If you are trying to "clone" 4E and not just create an entirely new game for yourself, it needs to be able to work with existing 4E material that people already have. Thus you can't reduce abilities down to 4 or raise them up to 8. Because if you do, every single adventure or additional product that a person owns that they would want to use with their "4E rules with the serial numbers shaved off", would require a ton of extra work. And that goes against the whole reason to "clone" a game in the first place.

Paizo made sure that their clone of 3.5 would work with people's existing 3.5 material. WotC's "Essentials" clone (which pretty much it is) worked with people's existing 4E material. If any clone is to be made here for universal-ish use (and not just a personal homebrew hack)... then you cannot make people's 4E material useless.

DEFCON 1 said:

If you are trying to "clone" 4E and not just create an entirely new game for yourself, it needs to be able to work with existing 4E material that people already have. Thus you can't reduce abilities down to 4 or raise them up to 8. Because if you do, every single adventure or additional product that a person owns that they would want to use with their "4E rules with the serial numbers shaved off", would require a ton of extra work. And that goes against the whole reason to "clone" a game in the first place.

Paizo made sure that their clone of 3.5 would work with people's existing 3.5 material. WotC's "Essentials" clone (which pretty much it is) worked with people's existing 4E material. If any clone is to be made here for universal-ish use (and not just a personal homebrew hack)... then you cannot make people's 4E material useless.

Click to expand...

Maybe a 4.5 or alternative 5E. Theres no real point actually loning 4E when the PDFs are available and books are cheap and readily available, the rare books you can't clone anyway.

All right... if you're going to make an alternate 5E then just say that. Or if you want to make a personalized 4E variant then just say that. But if that's the case, then you have no need to worry about the D&D SRDs or the OGL. Do whatever you want with no expectation of publishing or publicizing it and keep it for yourself (which it looks like you, [MENTION=6716779]Zardnaar[/MENTION] have already been doing, which is great.)

But my presumption is that if you are coming onto EN World to work with other posters to combine to create a "4E clone" together (and not just your own personal hack)... then you actually have a desire to make it a more universal and faithful port that is OGL compliant and thus able to be "published" like so many OSR games are. And if that's the case, you cannot start the process by introducing all your own rule hacks to get rid of personal bugaboos. Because your personal bugaboos are not going to be other people's, and thus this game you are trying to make will already write off 98% of the people you are hoping to get involved and/or play it.

If you want to clone 4E, start with 4E. Write up the 4E Player's Handbook 1 (all the races, classes, themes etc.) in SRD OGL form so that you know you are compliant to begin with and you actually have a base game foundation to use and publish. Once you've done that... then start talking with other people about slight changes to help the game find a bit better balance.

But if that's too much hassle or you feel like its unnecessary because the game already works as-is... then you don't actually want to clone 4E, you just want to make your own house rules for 4E more well-known.

Yaarel said:

It is worth having balanced abilities.

Click to expand...

Fourth Edition D&D balanced ability scores (among other things) better than any other edition.

If you go back to attributing a single characteristic to a specific defense, then you are giving those ability scores additional value over those that do not. The way 4e did it, pairing up the two closest-compatible abilities to each defense, players were less constrained in their character builds. For example, a player could explore cleric builds or concepts around a higher Intelligence without compromising the Reflex bonus he may enjoy for investing in more Dexterity (which, as you rightly point out, already has a higher value in the game).

Something else 4e does with placing more value on ability scores is making sure that the primary ability scores for *your* character is just as important in combat as everyone else's. Look at any class power. I can't verify every single one every created, but I can guarantee that the vast majority use the primary (and secondary, and sometimes even tertiary) ability score for that class to influence attack rolls, and usually damage rolls or other effects, like moving enemies or allies x-spaces + ability score modifiers.

If you're going a completely different route, that's fine. But by the looks of things, you're already heading in the opposite direction of 'balanced abilities'.

*Plus, there's too many people with too many ideas already working on too many versions of 4e clones at the moment. You might be better off writing your own version for the one perspective that matters the most in this particular project - yourself. Then present it for anyone else who might like your ideas, or even just get inspired enough to make their own revisions for themselves. Otherwise, you may be looking at an uphill battle trying to achieve group consensus for some of your most radical ideas. But kudos for effort!