Ability Score Rebalancing

Yaarel said:

Give Perception to Intelligence.

Perceptive people are intelligent.

Perceptiveness explains the Initiative bonus − the person perceives and assesses the threat that is approaching.

Give Perception and Initiative to Intelligence.

Click to expand...

Better yet do as we did and unlink all skills from ability scores. Mix-and-match them in whatever way makes sense and life is easier IMO.

But I agree INT could easily be used for Initiative, or an option for it at least.

IDK, INT would be like my third pick for Initiative, after DEX and WIS. I get why people are looking at INT for game balance reasons, but it "doesn't make enough sense" to me that I find it a bit of a turn off. Also, at higher levels, I don't think the Wizard also needs to be the fastest reacting character.

Reaction time is a mixed bag, and there are arguments to be made for all three of DEX, WIS and INT. Maybe that's not a bad answer actually, why not make initiative more MAD and allow up to +2 from each of those three stats rather than basing in just on one?

I've also been giving serious thought to changing STR/DEX to be just damage mods/hit mods and doing away with full DEX or STR based combat.

Fenris-77 said:

IDK, INT would be like my third pick for Initiative, after DEX and WIS. I get why people are looking at INT for game balance reasons, but it "doesn't make enough sense" to me that I find it a bit of a turn off. Also, at higher levels, I don't think the Wizard also needs to be the fastest reacting character.

Reaction time is a mixed bag, and there are arguments to be made for all three of DEX, WIS and INT. Maybe that's not a bad answer actually, why not make initiative more MAD and allow up to +2 from each of those three stats rather than basing in just on one?

I've also been giving serious thought to changing STR/DEX to be just damage mods/hit mods and doing away with full DEX or STR based combat.

Click to expand...

One option we considered was using all three and adding them up for the total modifier, but characters strong in those three will likely always go first.

Going with only DEX attack and only STR damage is a good option IMO also. It makes is so even tanky-armor-type will want at least some DEX.

FrogReaver said:

If you want Int to be less of a dump stat then create more int classes and subclasses.

Click to expand...

Not big on homebrewing classes & sub-classes. I wish the Warlock was Int instead of Cha, because it would have put another spellcaster using Int and balanced it out a bit. Oddly, despite my heavy dislike of 4E, I really liked the concept of the gish class (Swordblade?), and would love to have seen that as a 1/2 caster class like the paladin and ranger for the wizard.

FrogReaver said:

Do you know why the rogue swashbuckler dumps int? Because dex, charisma and con are always going to be more important to him.
Do you know why the wizard always dumps charisma? Because Dex, Int and Con are always going to be more important to him.
Do you know why the monk dumps strength? Because Dex, Wisdom and Con are always going to be more important to him.

There's literally nothing you can do to the dump stats to make them of equal value to the stats that the classes are already going to be taking and so the main stats are always going to be more important.

Click to expand...

Your experiences have been vastly different than mine. IME everyone except the wizard, eldritch knight, and arcane trickster will dump Int, with the occasional RP type player who wants to have an average or higher intelligence character. Also, almost every non-bladesinger wizard I've seen dumps Str the same way everyone else dumps Int. This is partially due to stereotypes, but also due to the fact that the "penalties" for a low score in those is irrelvant to the character.

FrogReaver said:

Also, literally every change you make is either a buff or a nerf. If you give int a bonus that becomes a detriment when negative then you've just nerfed any class that doesn't main stat int. Now they lose something for having 8 int, effectively nerfing them if they go 8 int and nerfing them in their other stats if that was the reason they choose to go 10 int instead of 8.

Click to expand...

It's a small buff/nerf, yes. This is deliberate. Having a low ability score is supposed to be an actual penalty, not something that is just shrugged off. By your argument, Con is a nerf to every class, since everyone needs it, but no one ever uses it as a primary ability.

If they had balanced the saving throws across all 6 abilities (which I feel is their biggest failure of 5E), this discussion would be irrelevant, since having a low ability score would make you vulnerable to something. Instead, you have 3 abilities (Str, Int, Cha) that can be safely ignored by a large number of characters with minimal drawback.

FrogReaver said:

I prefer not to have non-wizards be nerfed, or at least if we are going to go that route at least nerf wizards that dump strength/charisma/wisdom equally

Click to expand...

Using the Encumbrance variant is a great way to prevent Str as a dump score. Dumping Wis is a terrible idea, as you will be surprised frequently and there are a LOT of Wis saves that can be terrible to fail. I'll agree on Cha, and have found only the follower loyalty rule (DMG or XGtE) as a potential penalty. If I could think of something else, I would probably implement it.

I'd start off simply: bows use Str, not Dex; it's crossbows that use Dex to hit and damage, being sniper weapons. A Str 3 Dex 18 PC is not going to be pulling a longbow.

Like many others, in my 35+ years of gaming, I have played non-D&D/D20 systems that have used either more or less than 6 ability scores. I have found that, if done right, a system with 8 ability scores can work better than the D&D model. Generally, with 8 primary abilities, secondary abilities are an average of two of the primary scores. An example from what people have posted here would be Initiative. That would be an average of Dex and Int. Attacks would be an average of Str and Dex. Damage would be an average of Str or Dex, depending on weapon type, and Int. Int in this case is representing the character's knowledge of combat and weak points, etc.

But another thing to take into account, regardless of system, is whether you are playing with min-max asshats or with players who like to make balanced characters. No matter how many ability scores you use, or how balanced you try to make things, there will always be those players who will try to game the system.

Quartz said:

I'd start off simply: bows use Str, not Dex; it's crossbows that use Dex to hit and damage, being sniper weapons. A Str 3 Dex 18 PC is not going to be pulling a longbow.

Click to expand...

If you've ever handled a recreated long bow, a Str 10 can have issues pulling it. I would definitely apply Str penalties to attack as well as damage before Dex ever comes into the picture.

Yaarel said:

Give Perception to Intelligence.

Perceptive people are intelligent.

Perceptiveness explains the Initiative bonus − the person perceives and assesses the threat that is approaching.

Give Perception and Initiative to Intelligence.

Click to expand...

The absent minded professor springs to mind

Shiroiken said:

Not big on homebrewing classes & sub-classes. I wish the Warlock was Int instead of Cha, because it would have put another spellcaster using Int and balanced it out a bit. Oddly, despite my heavy dislike of 4E, I really liked the concept of the gish class (Swordblade?), and would love to have seen that as a 1/2 caster class like the paladin and ranger for the wizard.

Your experiences have been vastly different than mine. IME everyone except the wizard, eldritch knight, and arcane trickster will dump Int, with the occasional RP type player who wants to have an average or higher intelligence character. Also, almost every non-bladesinger wizard I've seen dumps Str the same way everyone else dumps Int. This is partially due to stereotypes, but also due to the fact that the "penalties" for a low score in those is irrelvant to the character.

It's a small buff/nerf, yes. This is deliberate. Having a low ability score is supposed to be an actual penalty, not something that is just shrugged off. By your argument, Con is a nerf to every class, since everyone needs it, but no one ever uses it as a primary ability.

If they had balanced the saving throws across all 6 abilities (which I feel is their biggest failure of 5E), this discussion would be irrelevant, since having a low ability score would make you vulnerable to something. Instead, you have 3 abilities (Str, Int, Cha) that can be safely ignored by a large number of characters with minimal drawback.

Using the Encumbrance variant is a great way to prevent Str as a dump score. Dumping Wis is a terrible idea, as you will be surprised frequently and there are a LOT of Wis saves that can be terrible to fail. I'll agree on Cha, and have found only the follower loyalty rule (DMG or XGtE) as a potential penalty. If I could think of something else, I would probably implement it.

Click to expand...

"Your experiences have been vastly different than mine. IME everyone except the wizard, eldritch knight, and arcane trickster will dump Int, with the occasional RP type player who wants to have an average or higher intelligence character."

Looking across the last 4 5e games I was in, the only PCs who went with 8 int were barbarians or other barbarisn-like characters.

Most had 10s in Int, except the bard orctogue who was going for investigator or knowledge guy (and the arcane trickster.)

But, as I have said before, a lot is gonna depend on the nature of challenges presented in the campaign. If the GM doesnt present challenges that show investigation as worth being good at or knowledge skills that matter to success, then one ought to not expect to see all that much investment in those by the players driven to make character choices solely by mechanical considerations.

In my current 5e game, I have an 8, 10, 10, 12, 16 int spread among PCs.

5ekyu said:

"Your experiences have been vastly different than mine. IME everyone except the wizard, eldritch knight, and arcane trickster will dump Int, with the occasional RP type player who wants to have an average or higher intelligence character."

Looking across the last 4 5e games I was in, the only PCs who went with 8 int were barbarians or other barbarisn-like characters.

Most had 10s in Int, except the bard orctogue who was going for investigator or knowledge guy (and the arcane trickster.)

But, as I have said before, a lot is gonna depend on the nature of challenges presented in the campaign. If the GM doesnt present challenges that show investigation as worth being good at or knowledge skills that matter to success, then one ought to not expect to see all that much investment in those by the players driven to make character choices solely by mechanical considerations.

In my current 5e game, I have an 8, 10, 10, 12, 16 int spread among PCs.

Click to expand...

I wanted to add - penalizing a language when negative INT or extra languages when high int isn’t going to change whether someone dumps int or not

it might make a few go to 10 int instead of 8. But then they are just putting the 8 in str or cha or wisdom or dex.