GX.Sigma
Adventurer
Ah, you were involved in that, right? Do you know if it'll ever be published?
D&D 5E Why the D&D Next playtest won't resemble the final product
Ah, you were involved in that, right? Do you know if it'll ever be published?
Stormonu
Legend
From my own experience, even though I own the entire line of BECM, 1E, 2E and 3E adventures, I've only completely ever run through maybe a handful (C1, S1, S2, B2, I6 & I10) - there certainly has been a lot more I started up, but for one reason or another, never finished (DL1 being the one most annoying in falling through, numerous times). However, more than anything else, they've been my window into how to put together my own adventures - both structure and content. I've pulled an individual encounter from more of the modules that I own that I can keep count of. For me, while the rulebooks may the reference source for handling the game (mostly the PC side), adventures are the guides for showcasing what sort of a story or game you can put together.
To use a video game analogy, the core 3 would be like giving you the Unreal 3 engine, whereas an adventure module would put it together into Fallout 3. I may be unusual, but without a good adventure to either run or fall back on for designing my own, it can often make or break my enthusiasm for a game.
I hate to beat up on KotS, but that module really, really soured my experience with 4E. I really think that if I'd had something like The Slaying Stone available back when 4E first came out - and some equally wonderful following adventures, I might have eventually warmed to the system.
Mad Hamish
First Post
It really depends on how the company is doing things.
The Wizards approach has been that Adventures are low sellers intended to let them sell more rulebooks (which is also what they were thinking would happen with the d20 & ogl licenses, other companies would focus on adventures and settings and players for them would buy the rule books from Wizards)
Paizo has a different focus where their main focus is the adventure paths and the rulebooks are secondary (hence damned near all of the content in their rule books being available for free on the site and their core rulebook being available for $9.99 as a pdf)
They write pretty damned good adventures and they sell well enough that it's the core of their business.
Alphastream, I've found your posts on this thread interesting and informative, so thank you.
But there was one bit that I wanted to respond to.
One example I've thought about a bit is the sample scenarios in the HeroWars Narrator's Book. Superficially, at least, there's a lot in common here with a 4e adventure - a series of key events/encounters, where the DCs are set in at least a somewhat scaled way, and the resolution is reasonably metagame heavy. But the HeroWars adventures manage to present, at one and the same time, a useful package for a GM - likely story pathways, a range of DCs and opponents suitable for those pathways, etc - without appearing to dictate outcomes or railroad players through them. Whereas the 4e adventures present these linear sequences of encounters with almost no story pathway or logic at all (Demon Queen's Enclave being the closest to an honourable exception, at least of the ones I've seen). And the skill challenges are also presented in a terrible way, with no real advice to the GM on flexible and engaging adjudication (more effort is given to setting out likely creature tactics, even though these are mostly self-evident from the monster stat blocks).
Part of the problem is obviously the need for XP to make a D&D game progress, but 4e has its own tools there - especially Quest XP, but also skill challenges - so that you don't need to fill your adventure with encounters that serve no purpose other than XP grinding.
Anyway, I hope your prediction that they'll do a better job this time comes true.
But there was one bit that I wanted to respond to.
I don't think 4e was fundamentally different from other RPGs we've seen before - it owes quite a bit to a variety of indie RPGs, for instance. And I think that lessons could have been learned, and weren't, from other examples of adventure presentation.
One example I've thought about a bit is the sample scenarios in the HeroWars Narrator's Book. Superficially, at least, there's a lot in common here with a 4e adventure - a series of key events/encounters, where the DCs are set in at least a somewhat scaled way, and the resolution is reasonably metagame heavy. But the HeroWars adventures manage to present, at one and the same time, a useful package for a GM - likely story pathways, a range of DCs and opponents suitable for those pathways, etc - without appearing to dictate outcomes or railroad players through them. Whereas the 4e adventures present these linear sequences of encounters with almost no story pathway or logic at all (Demon Queen's Enclave being the closest to an honourable exception, at least of the ones I've seen). And the skill challenges are also presented in a terrible way, with no real advice to the GM on flexible and engaging adjudication (more effort is given to setting out likely creature tactics, even though these are mostly self-evident from the monster stat blocks).
Part of the problem is obviously the need for XP to make a D&D game progress, but 4e has its own tools there - especially Quest XP, but also skill challenges - so that you don't need to fill your adventure with encounters that serve no purpose other than XP grinding.
Anyway, I hope your prediction that they'll do a better job this time comes true.
Alphastream
Adventurer
Thanks, I feel tremendously fortunate to have been involved. Even better, I worked with other authors who were amazing to work with. I unfortunately can't talk about anything that isn't already announced (that's how an NDA works - I can't share anything that isn't already disclosed). I can't wait to talk about it!
Alphastream
Adventurer
I agree on principle that 4E could have foreseen that the early adventure design would fall short. But, I doubt it was due to designers not playing other games (they play many different games). Rather, it was (in my estimation, very possibly wrong) a combination of rushing to release (giving everyone very little time to think through the design) and goals of accessibility. I think throughout D&D (including the end of 3E) there has been this feeling that the most accessible experience is that of chucking dice, stabbing monsters, and claiming treasure. There is some truth to that, but I also think there is great truth to the game being most appealing because we get to experience fantasy (which we otherwise would passively watch or read in movies/TV/novels).
I'm not familiar with HeroWars; I'll have to check it out. I still think 4E is very different to write for than any RPG I have played previously. While elements are similar, the combination is really very different. That difference, combined with rushing and the goal of accessibility, is exactly what led to early 4E Living Forgotten Realms adventures lacking story. Authors lacked experience with the new changes, but also faced new goals to try to prevent some of the 3E Living Greyhawk problems where the story rapidly was overwhelming for a new player. A new player in some LG regions honestly couldn't possibly role-play their PC correctly in adventures because they lacked the setting knowledge regarding the role of their PC in the society. Being a new LG player could be very hard - hard enough to not bother trying. To compensate, 4E organized play swung too far in the other direction (and since that time has come back to embrace story while still making the game accessible).
A good specific example of needing experience is the DMG's writeup on skill challenges. It sounded okay back then, but pretty early on we found that it falls short. Organized play adventures quickly experimented with different changes, preventing static metagame play and furthering imaginative personality-driven play. We can also look at the absurd suggested encounters in the Monster Manual (they look more like DDM miniature game pairings, with very little thought to whether the monsters would actually fight together), or the initial problems with grind-heavy elite brutes in featureless rooms. Organized play has moved far beyond that, as have Dungeon and other DDI efforts.
Today's 4E adventures are night-and-day different from the early efforts. It has been, in my opinion, a recognition that new and casual players love story, an understanding that accessibility can be achieved in other ways, and experience with 4E's innovations.
Unlike the 3E-4E transition, with Next the lessons are already in place. And, there has been the time to acclimate to the new system. Future authors get to play and DM for more than a year before having to write. That's not to say there won't be duds. There are always going to be some and no effort pleases everyone. But, I think we will continue to see D&D Next release adventures of which we can be proud.
dd.stevenson
Super KY
Hey, [MENTION=11365]Alphastream[/MENTION] (and whoever else), can you recommend a great 4E adventure that I should check out? Something that really showcases where 4E adventure design has got to; not something that showcases 4E itself so much.
It's Robin Laws's Glorantha game. It's latest incarnation is HeroQuest revised (although in that version its a generic system rather than Glorantha-specific).
Alphastream
Adventurer
From stores, it is hard to argue with Madness at Gardmore Abbey. For what I would call approachable quick play, I love the intro adventure, Siege of Gardmore Abbey (ran at PAX Prime, now also part of Dungeon 210. Madness is a super-adventure, but isn't just a delve. It has a number of NPCs, and a means by which the DM determines which ones become allies or foes in response to player options. It features the Deck of Many Things, has some really exciting battles, has great RP and exploration, and comes with some great features (the Deck, colorful maps, tiles).
From DDI, there are a number of really good Dungeon adventures. Some of my favorites:
Dead by Dawn, 170, where PCs have to hold out against undead until dawn breaks. Very cool.
Cross-City Race, 176, where PCs participate in a race across town with all kinds of choices and events to make that harder (including competition from other teams).
Blood Money, 200, using a cool system of Plot Points to determine what various factions/NPCs will do at various points in time.
Flame's Last Flicker, 200, an Epic adventure where PCs must travel to various time periods to take down a famous dragon.
For Dark Sun, Beneath the Dustand Isle of Death, 187 and 202, two straightforward adventures with some great scenes and choices.
Tears of the Crocodile God, 209, a 'dropped into a dungeon' where each round various defenseless villagers move around the dungeon and PCs try to find them and save them, amongst other developments.
Glitterdust, Dungeon 211, an adventure just for Pixies, where the entire thing takes into account pixie size and capabilities and is fey themed.
There are many DDI adventures, but those are the ones in my "I have to run this or steal from this" folder. I wrote the Asian-themed The Five Deadly Shadows, Dungeon 195, and while not on par with the above, I think it captures the Asian feel and offers some fun scenes.
From organized play:
The Epic series of Living Forgotten Realms are excellent. I also really like CORE2-11, NETH4-2 and NETH4-3, QUES1-1, and CALI3-2 (where you get to plan and act out a play before springing an attack on a foe - brilliant!). The adventures can all be downloaded here. I wrote CORE1-14 What Storms May Come, and SPEC2-1 Scout's Honor, and in both I tried to break some new ground.
I am biased, but I think we did a good job on a number of Ashes of Athas adventures. I liked how we handled cinematic fights aboard vehicles in AOA1-3, AOA4-1, and AOA7-2. I like how we reshaped skill challenges in many of the adventures. And I like how we allowed for choices across the story-heavy series. Information on requesting adventures can be found here.
There are also some convention events, such as the 'everyone plays a drow with secret plots' The Dawn of Night, but those aren't available outside of finding a DM that ran it and could run it for you.
I hope that provides some options. Every gamer likes something a little different, or course. I tend to fall for cinematic scenes and cool RP choices, and I'm also looking for neat ideas and innovations. I tend to not like Dungeon Crawls.
dd.stevenson
Super KY
Thanks! I'm not keen on 4E itself, but I'm always glad to expand my collection of great adventures.
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