Unearthed Arcana Unearthed Arcana Introduces The Artifcer

Datalore · Jan 11, 2017

Its a poor list. This outclasses both the rogue and the warlock easily. They should keep alchemist as the utility guy not as the damage guy with a robotic dinosaur.

Belltent · Jan 11, 2017

A poor list? A rogue literally has double the chance of doing that damage. One bad RNG ruins the artificer. To do your once a turn mega damage would you rather:

Attack once,
Force a strong save throw, or
Attack twice?

I can add to the list by the way: rogues MC better, a rogue's expertise is better, rogues get that nasty damage *before* any of their archetype bonuses come into play so they get a bunch of other goodies piled on. The list continues

Datalore · Jan 11, 2017

Its a poor list because in actual play this would outclass a rogue or warlock. A few reactive abilities do not make up for flexible, consistent aoe or single target damage.

Also a ranged rogue also has 1 chance on its damage can pull it off less consistently.

This guy is getting infinite double damage super cantrips with infinite aoes, a robot dinosaur and free magic items.

The numbers dont add up on this class. It gets too much and gives up too little.

jimmifett · Jan 11, 2017

Very nice, liking this direction.

Needs ability to bypass class and spell list restrictions for attuning and using items/casting from scrolls.

A subclass with wand adept in mind would be the bee's collective knees.

Jackal_ · Jan 11, 2017

doctheweasel said:
This is the first entry that I read and thought, "I want to play that."

I would include the latest incarnation of the beast master ranger, but I agree. I would also like to see the inclusion of a "golem" based subclass and I think the alchemical subclass needs more formula options, but I will probably ask my DM to run this in our next campaign.

Cap'n Kobold · Jan 11, 2017

I can actually see a separate Eberron-based subclass for the Artificer being introduced, with more of the focus towards magical devices rather than engineering.
I know spell-storing item, with its incredible versatility at the expense of XP cost was a mainstay of the 3.5 artificer, but I'm not sure of the best way to translate that.

In order to 'Eberronise' the gunsmith subclass, what are people's thoughts on the relative power of elemental damage types compared to piercing? Would a straight swap to force damage be too powerful? Would free choice of elemental damage type, changeable at levelling be OK? Or should it be swapped to a relatively commonly resisted element like Fire?
Drop a d6 from the damage progression perhaps, in exchange for Intelligence as the ability used for hit and damage?

If you want a real feel for the 3.5 Artificer, particularly for meleeficer, you could still do worse than a slightly rejiggered Forge Cleric with a splash of this class for the tool expertise.

Kobold Avenger · Jan 11, 2017

Cap'n Kobold said:
If you want a real feel for the 3.5 Artificer, particularly for meleeficer, you could still do worse than a slightly rejiggered Forge Cleric with a splash of this class for the tool expertise.

I could see this class getting about 2 or 3 more archetypes. If it's to be in the same book as the Mystic, that class is allegedly getting 6 subclasses.

I think a companion focused one is a popular idea, as the mechanical servant idea probably does need some work and there should be a subclass to carry that idea further. The big damage from this one would be certainly from the servant, whether it's flame breath or some other big attack. Though as I mentioned before it doesn't necessarily need to be mechanical as I feel that Dr. Frankenstein or Dr. Moreau can also be inspirations for such a concept.

The battlesmith would be another idea as I'm sure there's many that want a melee focused one, whether it's with rune powered weapons and armour or mechanical plate armour with a sword attached to a gas tank. I'm sure it could have d6's of elemental damage to it's melee attacks.

There's probably some room for a tinkerer, that makes a lot of small temporary devices, it just needs some things to separate it from the alchemist.

Chaosmancer · Jan 11, 2017

Datalore said:
Its not balanced at all because the gunsmith is broken too. Its rogue sneak attack (close analogue) without the need for a distracting ally plus an aoe he can do plus a cr2 pet plus magic plus magic items plus crazy utility. Its broken. The cunning action, evasion, etc doesnt come close to making up the difference for the amount of op that this class gets.

IF we’re just looking Gunsmith vs Ranged rogue we’ve got 2 different possibilities at let’s say lv 6 (it’s a good level)

Gunsmith uses Thunder Monger, 4d6+mod on a hit, bonus action reload

The Rogue uses either a shortbow (common choice) or if they are more optimized for ranged combat a light crossbow, Shortbow is 4d6+mod, Crossbow is 1d8+3d6+mod. And their bonus action can be used to hide or move to a better position

Now the Artificer pet is potentially very powerful, a CR 2 creature is nothing to sneeze at, but the magic items are of varying importance. Getting a bag of holding at level 1 isn’t going to alter the game terribly much in my experience. Also, as written, the pet is incredibly hard to heal and could go down very quickly. I’m also not seeing “crazy utility” they get 4 1st level spells by this point. Probably cure, disguise self, shield of faith, and something else.

What does the rogue get? Expertise in four different skills can be very powerful, giving the rogue a lot of utility. Bonus action hide (for advantage on those ranged attacks), dash (for getting into position), or disengage (for getting away from the melee guys who caught you) is very powerful as well, keeping the rogue as one of the most active battlefield participants as they generally have what amounts to 2 actions on their turn.

And then the big one, Uncanny dodge. I’ve got a party right now with 3 different rogues. Let me assure you, unless I have multiple attacks hit the rogue, uncanny dodge is ½ all damage and it shows. It is certainly a contender for one of the most powerful abilities in the game the more I see it in action.

Artificers are strong, but they don’t put the rogue to shame. You gunsmith shoots a guy and then just stands there in the back line, the rogue moves in, shoots the guy, and then hides behind some rubble where he can’t be targeted next turn.

7th level makes it worse, because Evasion is another incredibly powerful ability. When the Artificer and his robo-ape get fireballed, they are both likely to fail and even if they don’t they take signifignat damage. The rogue is likely to succeed and takes no damage at all.

What this translates into is staying power. A rogue at 7th level actually loves fighting things that shoot of dex-based aoes, because he can be practically immune to the damage. While your artificer is going to be burnt to a crisp.

And a final point on this section, remember, we’re only talking base rogue at this point. Assassins and Arcane Tricksters begin altering all these calculations. Arcane Tricksters cancel out the spellcasting advantage of the Artificer and gets cantrips. Assassin can drastically alter the tide of combat if they can get surprise, by sometimes one-shotting an enemy leader.

Datalore said:
Again, take that pet, make it a familiar. That cuts down some of the early level brokenness while keeping the late game utility. Reduce the number of magic items to 4 (remove the final tier) and start getting them at five (bunmp them back). Take that damage and dial that crap back. It should not equal a sneak attack. Maybe, maybe it could equal a warlock's eldritch blast (or slightly exceed it on the gun due to bonus action reload needs) The aoes should be tiny (like acid splash tiny or maybe a 10 ft square) and their damage should be at most fire bolt damage). Also, the spell casting shouldnt be its own wierd progression. Too many corner cases is not what 5e is supposed to be about. Consider 1/3 warlock and have it be like the Warlock where you have to choose your spells. That will rein in some of their sillyness.

If the above is done, its still a useful, viable and fun class. It just isnt some kind of ranged juggernaut that makes warlocks and rogues useless.

I could see scaling the pet back, mostly because no one seems to really want a Large construct pet and would prefer a small clockwork familiar instead, but I can’t really get behind your other points. Everything I’m seeing puts the artificer a little behind the curve, not way ahead, so I don’t think it needs nerfed almost at all.

Datalore said:
Its a poor list because in actual play this would outclass a rogue or warlock. A few reactive abilities do not make up for flexible, consistent aoe or single target damage.

Also a ranged rogue also has 1 chance on its damage can pull it off less consistently.

This guy is getting infinite double damage super cantrips with infinite aoes, a robot dinosaur and free magic items.

The numbers dont add up on this class. It gets too much and gives up too little.

I’ll agree the alchemist AOE is very nice, but by 7th level it is a 3d6 attack on a guy and anyone standing next to him. Not immense damage, and not a big AOE. Plus as a dex-save I’ve found you could be much less likely to hit anything, as Save DCs tend to be low and on a save, that attack fails to do any damage.

Powerful, but not OMG powerful I think. Same with the magic items, by 7th level you could have a bag of holding and an Alchemical Jar…. So you can carry a lot of stuff and get free poison, or fresh water? It’s not going to drastically shift the balance of power in most games.

So, The robot could be concerning, but the rest of it seems rather standard. I think in actual play you’d be surprised to find this guy doesn’t end up overshadowing anybody and can be overshadowed when daily abilities (which artificers seem to completely lack) are popped by the other players.

Garresh · Jan 11, 2017

Datalore said:
Its a poor list because in actual play this would outclass a rogue or warlock. A few reactive abilities do not make up for flexible, consistent aoe or single target damage.

Also a ranged rogue also has 1 chance on its damage can pull it off less consistently.

This guy is getting infinite double damage super cantrips with infinite aoes, a robot dinosaur and free magic items.

The numbers dont add up on this class. It gets too much and gives up too little.

Sorry, but you're incorrect on one point. A ranged rogue worth his salt will be grabbing crossbow expert since it only costs 1 feat, and gets him 2 ranged attacks. Sometimes they follow this up with sharpshooter, but you get the idea.

Datalore · Jan 11, 2017

Not all of us play with feat or multiclassing optional rules (as described in official game materials). Yes, when playing with optional rules that create powergamey combos, the game breaks apart and things may change (this is true of every rpg ever). However, playing the game as designed without the poorly designed optional rules is very different. Even with xbow expert, having to burn a feat to be mildly competative (but still worse) with this broken class hints at a balance problem.

Unearthed Arcana Unearthed Arcana Introduces The Artifcer

Datalore

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jimmifett

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