D&D 5E Alignment, Good Fun and Unnecessary Evil

Coroc

Hero
[MENTION=6801461]Draegn[/MENTION] it might be that this was the Intention or the Basic Moral code the original creators applied. But as i am not intermingling reality with fiction to Derivate a Moral danger because soem Monsters are named devil, i also not have to stick to the same clean modern ethics the Inventors of D&D had intended for the game when creating my own game scenarios, as i posted already 1 post above, depending on the PCs wanting to play in such a scenario.

I also think this is pretty much individually, it is liek soem people like watching horror movies and some hate it, some see the devil if a Dragon appears in a Cartoon for Kids on TV.
 

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Elderbrain

Guest
I wish to take issue with two notions that popped up in this thread. First, the idea that in 1e, Alignments were static, so that an alignment assigned to a group meant that every member was that alignment, without exception (i.e. all Orcs are Lawful Evil). In the 1e Monster Manual, Halflings are listed as Lawful Good. So if we accept the premise that all Orcs are Lawful Evil (in 1e), then logically all Halflings must be Lawful Good, since that's the Alignment listed for them. But wait! The Player's Handbook allows Halflings to be Thieves, which in 1e CANNOT be Lawful Good! Clearly, the Alignment listed for them in the MM represents the TYPICAL Halfling - not ALL Halflings. So the Alignments listed in the early books only indicate the Alignment of a TYPICAL Orc, Goblin, etc.

The other idea I disagree with is the idea that treating Orcs (or whatever) as individuals and judging their Alignments by their actions rather than their race is somehow "moral relativism"; to me, it's just the opposite; an example of moral CLARITY. If a Paladin (who in 1e can actually check the Orc's Alignment at will to see if it is Evil) cuts down an Orc simply for the "crime" of being an Orc, THAT is moral relativism, turning morality into a mere game of "our side" vs. "their side", with actual ethics left at the wayside. In 1e, Half-Orcs could be PCs... would a Paladin be entltled to kill them on sight? I'm not talking about a situation such as a battle where there's no time to make such judgments, and the Paladin is just defending himself, or accidental killing of a Good creature (i.e an honest mistake), but situations where the Paladin has time to make a judgment. For instance, say the Paladin rounds a corner and bumps into an armed Drittz. Thinking he is about to be killed, the Paladin strikes first, thinking Drittz is just another Evil Drow. O.K. honest mistake. Now suppose the Paladin sees Drittz at a distance, binding the wounds of a Gnome or otherwise not behaving in an Evil manner (or actually doing Good). Drittz turns and hails the Paladin, requesting his aid. In this case, the Paladin has no excuse for not checking the Alignment of Drittz, since he's clearly not under attack. (End of rant.)

In any case, eliminating Alignments does nothing to eliminate moral issues from the game, UNLESS the DM simply ignores morals altogether and allows the PCs to do whatever they like without consideration of good and evil. Even in GURPS, with no Alignment system, the "Orc babies" problem will turn up if the PCs have a conscience.

As to the statement that the D&D game assumes Medieval morality, that is only partly true. It also draws heavily on the morality presented in fantasy fiction, where the heroes, if not actually Good-Aligned, are at worst Neutral (and even then, only rob and kill Evil foes). You never see Conan or other morally-ambiguous characters commit rape, for instance, nor do they engage in slavery, etc. In short, their behavior assumes SOME modern moral assumptions.
 
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Eltab

Lord of the Hidden Layer
I don't use alignment (much) with PCs because too many people get upset when their Good character gets called out for committing an Evil action without solid justification.

However, for some Outsiders (devils, demons, angels come to mind immediately), alignment is an important part of their personality.
 

Gadget

Adventurer
With regard to 1e/HM4/2e, there are consequences for when/if a character ends up slipping into some other alignment...so Alignment is static (meaning it doesn't matter what the PC/Creature believes is good or evil, there are absolutes in the multiverse that define X is Good, Y is Evil, Z is Neutral, etc).

I think in the context of the Game, this is where alignment was originally meant to live. The problem came with DM's & players that were either immature, harsh or just plain contrary and used Alignment as a means of beating the PC over the head. Honest differences in background, culture and interpretation between the PCs and DM could also rear up through the course of game play as well.


Too bad about 3e+, imho. I always viewed Alignment as a good tool to use to keep the PC's from going all "...but now...with this power...I can CONQUER THE WORLD! Muhahahahah!!!". Because lets face it, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. You get a half-dozen 18th level PC's who decide they want to take over a city...there isn't much anyone can do about it. But if they have "NG" on their sheet, and Alignment has teeth, that decision can make a difference (especially when you loose a level and it takes 6 moths of actual play time to regain that level). Without those actual game-mechanic consequences (coupled with ridiculously fast level gains), there is literally nothing stopping a group from "going pirate" if they have a bad day and want to take out their frustrations on the campaign (...or the DM...).

This goes hand in hand with the AD&D philosophy of giving all the special powers and bonuses given to 'good aligned' classes as these powers could be taken away. It really seemed to come down to table dynamics that could be problematic for those that could not see eye to eye with the DM on alignment interpretation, and could be taken to extremes by overzealous DMs.

I kind of liked the 4e take on alignment, with Lawful good, good, unaligned, evil, & chaotic evil. Particularly the 'unaligned' status. The 'Cartesian Coordinates' alignment system always struck as the ultimate 'filling in the matrix' system that served little purpose other than justifying slightly different types of Monsters/Planes of existence. Even going back to the basic three phase alignment system would be preferable in a lot of ways.
 

Even if something is evil-aligned, that isn't always an excuse for stabbing it. There was a WotC article (Dragonshard I think) that pointed out that a reasonable proportion of people would have evil alignments. However their expression of it would be limited to small-scale evil: shortchanging their customers, beating their dogs, walking off with an unattended item when no one was around. Fear of the law/other consequences would keep them from committing more serious acts, and so a Paladin that went around killing citizens who went "Ping!" in their Detect Evil would find themselves in trouble with the authorities as well as their alignment.
 

Coroc

Hero
[MENTION=6802951]Cap'n Kobold[/MENTION] although such People would be under Special Attention by the Paladin and be the first suspect for any evil deed falling in their area of interest.
 

@Cap'n Kobold although such People would be under Special Attention by the Paladin and be the first suspect for any evil deed falling in their area of interest.
I think that that was the intro for the article: a paladin talking to someone who had registered as Evil. Explaining that their sword was for dealing with monsters but their words and faith were for those who still had a chance at redemption.
And suggesting that the person rethink, and change their life before the paladin's sword became necessary.

Edit: Found the link: its not exactly what I thought it was, but that intro is a very good guide for characters I think. http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041115a
 
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