D&D 5E [SPOILERS] Final encounter in Tyranny of Dragons and playing a wizard for 16 levels

Whizbang Dustyboots

Gnometown Hero
You're talking to a long-term wizard player (various types) across every edition.

Not a bubble. A floating dimensional aperture 50 feet above the ground.

Have you played 5E? It does not sound like you've played 5E. There is very little that can affect the environment in 5E in terms of magic, especially with a 1 action casting times. Illusions are mostly useless against dragons due to blindsight and more useless against god dragons due to truesight.

In 5E you do not have easy access to scrolls, wands/staffs, and other such items. They are extremely rare and you cannot make them or buy them in the standard game.

None of the tactics you recommended were available or necessary. Once you start playing 5E, you will find the listed tactics very, very difficult to use as few spells allow that type of environmental manipulation at the moment. My spell list is set up to deal with a variety of problems that have plagued us as we leveled up. The reason I keep spells memorized that I might otherwise not in previous editions is because you have no means to make them permanent such as see invisibility or put on a scroll such as teleport or they have an excessively long casting time such as conjure elemental. It's a very different game. You have to be prepared for a lot of different possibilities with a smaller pool of available spells and magic items than previous editions.
Ugh. That's pretty lame, on multiple levels.

Players shouldn't be required to "pixel bitch" their way to the magical "correct solution" to play any D&D adventure. Bad design there. Maybe something's more optimal, sure, but that should be a bonus, not something to penalize players for if they don't stumble upon it.

Secondly, I'm sad to hear that WotC hasn't realized that making magic into blasting and buffing and nothing else, albeit with different skins to "add variety" was something they should have left in 4E. If there really aren't spells that work on anything other than the target of the spell, that's a pretty terrible choice that hurts not only the people who play spellcasters but really limits the game itself, because it diminishes what sorts of things can happen in adventures, not to mention discourages some folks from playing.

In any case, the best way to react to terrible design is to Kobayashi Maru that joint and break the encounter by whatever legal means are available. If altering the environment isn't possible, maybe get an ally who can change the situation involved. Anything's better than wafting around, not participating in the climax of the adventure.

I'd also talk to your DM about what a crappy experience that was and ask them to watch out for that kind of thing in the future.
 
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KarinsDad

Adventurer
You're talking to a long-term wizard player (various types) across every edition.

Not a bubble. A floating dimensional aperture 50 feet above the ground.

Have you played 5E? It does not sound like you've played 5E. There is very little that can affect the environment in 5E in terms of magic, especially with a 1 action casting times. Illusions are mostly useless against dragons due to blindsight and more useless against god dragons due to truesight.

In 5E you do not have easy access to scrolls, wands/staffs, and other such items. They are extremely rare and you cannot make them or buy them in the standard game.

None of the tactics you recommended were available or necessary.

Here come the "Maybe your spell selection was just..." crowd. :lol:

Have fun responding to that. B-)
 

Ugh. That's pretty lame, on multiple levels.

Players shouldn't be required to "pixel bitch" their way to the magical "correct solution" to play any D&D adventure. Bad design there. Maybe something's more optimal, sure, but that should be a bonus, not something to penalize players for if they don't stumble upon it.

Secondly, I'm sad to hear that WotC hasn't realized that making magic into blasting and buffing and nothing else, albeit with different skins to "add variety" was something they should have left in 4E. If there really aren't spells that work on anything other than the target of the spell, that's a pretty terrible choice that hurts not only the people who play spellcasters but really limits the game itself, because it diminishes what sorts of things can happen in adventures, not to mention discourages some folks from playing.

In any case, the best way to react to terrible design is to Kobayashi Maru that joint and break the encounter by whatever legal means are available. If altering the environment isn't possible, maybe get an ally who can change the scenario involved. Anything's better than wafting around, not participating in the climax of the adventure.

I'd also talk to your DM about what a crappy experience that was and ask them to watch out for that kind of thing in the future.

It's not limited to blasting and buffing. Fabricate still exists, and so does Teleport. I agree with Celtavian that Tiamat's defenses are specifically tuned against spellcasters, which is why an all-fighter party is very strong against her. That doesn't mean the wizard is completely useless against her (Celtavian used Fly, and you could also lean on Simulacrum or Planar Binding in addition to the aforementioned Maze) but it's something to be aware of: if sitting safely in the background nibbling on cheese and absently reading a novel while Sir Hackalot kills the Dragon Queen sounds boring to you, you probably don't want to be a 5E wizard. If it sounds awesome to you, maybe you do want to be a 5E wizard.

Myself, I lean kind of towards the "that's awesome!" end of the spectrum, but I also think 5E fighters are awesome.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
I think it's also worth noting that several classes have abilities that force saves. The legendary resistance isn't just for spellcasters. And unless Tiamat knows all the spells and abilities the PCs are going to use beforehand (ahem...metagaming), it's perfectly reasonable that she'd use those resistances to avoid other save inducing abilities. This is something that gets forgotten frequently. Especially true with a BM fighter around.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Thanks for the encounter report, Celtavian. It sounds like WotC almost pulled a Bruce Cordell (Heart of Nightfang Spire) on you, there. ;)

It does also look like a primer for handling high-level challenges, and shows 5e delivering on some of it's promises:

It does, for instance, seem reminiscent of the classic game, as 5e has tried so hard to be. You have a high-level monster that's highly resistant to spells, and needs magic weapons to hit. You have the fighter wailing on it with a magic weapon meant specifically for it. All very familiar in concept, if a little different on the details. Admittedly, the casters backing off and buffing is a little more 3e than classic, but then 5e is comfortably situated between 2e & 3e in a lot of ways.



Pleasure to provide it. The wizard was a big concern of mine with the new edition as was magic in general. I needed magic to feel like magic meaning different than the capabilities of martials, more powerful than what other classes (especially martials) could accomplish (not necessarily in terms of damage, but in effect), and tactically interesting in terms of problem solving in and out of combat. .. At every level you pulled off things no one else could pull off...
It sounds like you were happy with the wizard's magic 'feeling like magic' and being 'more powerful' and tactically interesting, for 15 levels...

I imagine the martials had fun swinging. It was all over fairly quick. 500 plus hit points gets eaten up pretty quick by a Great Weapon using Fighter/Barbarian with a magic dragon slaying sword and a smiting paladin using Vow of Enmity.
They must have done, if they were able to have fun with it for all of the preceding 15 levels...

Not a very fun encounter for a caster.
The wizard is pretty powerful when the deck isn't stacked against him by designers that make opponents with flashing neon signs that say "Only martials may kill this. Buff them and read a book."
Such are the vagaries of artitrary spotlight balance.

So the three "martials" (one barbarian/fighter, one divine half-caster Paladin, and one arcane full-caster Bard are all 'martial,' in your book, it seems - maybe you meant 'melee' or 'doesn't completely disdain weapons') get to look a bit like the heroes they're supposed to be at the end - thanks to an overpowered magic sword, some smiting and some buff and protective spells. Doesn't seem so bad.

Even in the end game encounter against Tiamat when my wizard couldn't do much in combat, he was the only one that was going to get us out of there if things went bad. I was sitting on my teleport just in case. I had maze ready for a short respite from Tiamat if we needed it. I believe maze is an ability check rather than a saving throw, thus allowing it to bypass Legendary Resistance. That's one thing I recommend every wizard player do: read the spell text carefully. Small differences in text can make all the difference in battle.
That doesn't sound too useless, and it does sound like having really-magical magic that can do things others simply can't.
Ironically, that you didn't need the Maze puts Tiamat in the category of 'not worth a spell.'

[SPOILERS]
What I meant was there is a way in the module to break the spell immunity and if the party doesn't they are likely to fail - but you didn't fail which is cool. And once mid level spells become an option there are more chances to try and use up the legendary resistances.
So, in theory, casters were supposed to have a shot at more fully-participating in the final battle, as well, if the party had jumped through more of the right hoops?

It sounded like they didn't just 'not fail,' but virtually rolled over the goddess of evil dragons. Maybe letting that circle protect from her breath weapons was too much?

Secondly, I'm sad to hear that WotC hasn't realized that making magic into blasting and buffing and nothing else, albeit with different skins to "add variety" was something they should have left in 4E. If there really aren't spells that work on anything other than the target of the spell, that's a pretty terrible choice that hurts not only the people who play spellcasters but really limits the game itself, because it diminishes what sorts of things can happen in adventures, not to mention discourages some folks from playing.
What you're whinging about, there, definitely isn't an issue in 5e, and wasn't even one in 4e. "Casters not as profoundly broken as in 3e" isn't the same thing as "casters useless," nor even "casters not Tier 1 anymore." Indeed, Celtavian described having a Tier 1 experience with his Wizard, right up to the until point that the module used multiple god-like attributes of a capstone legendary encounter to stack the deck against him. (And even that, apparently, could have been knocked down if the party had managed to "pixel bitch their way to the magical correct solution," as you put it.)
 
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Whizbang Dustyboots

Gnometown Hero
What you're whinging about, there, definitely isn't an issue in 5e, and wasn't even one in 4e.
First off, let's not start characterizing people you disagree with as "whining."

And if 4E allowed wizards to do much outside of blasting or controlling the play field, I certainly didn't see it. Granted, I dumped my books early on and it may have been patched in, but I hardly stepped away from the RPG community and if WotC reversed course to allow more creative play, it was kept a pretty good secret. I remember being specifically disappointed when WotC announced Illusionist style content for their new wizards and it turned out to be blasting and controlling the play field, just with a skin of illusions and shadows.

Wanting more creative play outside of narrow parameters isn't the same as wanting anything to be "profoundly broken," to quote your strawman. Phantasmal Force/Silent Image isn't "profoundly broken" outside of some very narrow circumstances, nor is Prestidigitation, both of which give players the power to do something surprising at the table, as are other spells without narrowly defined roles. Some, obviously, like Polymorph and Wish (and their counterparts) do need careful moderation so you don't end up with 3E silliness, which gives me as much of a migraine as anyone else, but for me, part of magic in D&D is the metaphorical ability to pull a rabbit out of a hat and surprise the DM and the rest of the table with creative problem-solving.

(And even that, apparently, could have been knocked down if the party had managed to "pixel bitch their way to the magical correct solution," as you put it.)
Not a defensible design. It's railroading, plain and simple: "Don't do what the author wants you to do, even if it doesn't occur to you or it's just plain dumb? Too bad."
 

Feeroper

Explorer
I see a lot of criticism for WotC here for poor adventure design, but let's not forget that this was Kobold Press that designed the adventure.

Also re: magic, the free form creativity of prior edition spells does make its return here, so I'm not sure why I'm seeing a lot of of criticism of that in this thread. Everyone is entitled to their opinions though.
 

Celtavian

Dragon Lord
I see a lot of criticism for WotC here for poor adventure design, but let's not forget that this was Kobold Press that designed the adventure.

Also re: magic, the free form creativity of prior edition spells does make its return here, so I'm not sure why I'm seeing a lot of of criticism of that in this thread. Everyone is entitled to their opinions though.

True. But WotC is the one contracting them for adventure design. I know I may be one of the few, but I want them to find someone that does it as well as Paizo. I'm missing out on amazing Paizo adventures for this stuff. Giantslayer just came out. I'm betting it will be a blast. I want adventures like that. Something I can pick up and read like a small story as well as an adventure with some world bits. I used to read Paizo adventure modules just for some of the story hooks and unique rules like haunts and kingdom building. You ever read Rise of the Runelords and walk into the huge dam powered by the imprisoned souls of Pit Fiends? You find a drained Pit fiend corpse attached to a magical generator and one still alive begging to be released. That made you feel like you were finding the remnants of a lost civilization of such immense power they could imprison a devil of legendary power for use as a power generator. It's small story details such as that that make me miss Paizo modules. I didn't feel that way at all with Hoard of the Dragon Queen or Tyranny of Dragons.
 


Celtavian

Dragon Lord
Ugh. That's pretty lame, on multiple levels.

Players shouldn't be required to "pixel bitch" their way to the magical "correct solution" to play any D&D adventure. Bad design there. Maybe something's more optimal, sure, but that should be a bonus, not something to penalize players for if they don't stumble upon it.

Secondly, I'm sad to hear that WotC hasn't realized that making magic into blasting and buffing and nothing else, albeit with different skins to "add variety" was something they should have left in 4E. If there really aren't spells that work on anything other than the target of the spell, that's a pretty terrible choice that hurts not only the people who play spellcasters but really limits the game itself, because it diminishes what sorts of things can happen in adventures, not to mention discourages some folks from playing.

In any case, the best way to react to terrible design is to Kobayashi Maru that joint and break the encounter by whatever legal means are available. If altering the environment isn't possible, maybe get an ally who can change the situation involved. Anything's better than wafting around, not participating in the climax of the adventure.

I'd also talk to your DM about what a crappy experience that was and ask them to watch out for that kind of thing in the future.

Not to beat a dead horse, but the concentration rule is what makes it so the wizard can't screw around too much with the environment. Illusions are generally concentration. So are spells like Wall of Force or Dominate Person or Conjure Elemental. You get one of those spells up and you're pretty much limited to blasting with an occasional suggestion spell.

I don't mind. You still have power and can do interesting things no one else can do. You can't dominate and steal the show any longer. You have to make smart choices with your limited spell selection that both support the group and add some damage.

I'm hoping when they come out with a magic book we get some feat options that allow a bit of customization with the casters. All but one feat in the PHB is geared towards martials or general. I'm assuming given how simple the character building chassis is they are withholding the majority of magical options for a book. The sorcerer and cleric need expansion as there options are severely limited. Not much to build on with wizards other than feats and spells.

If you're desire is to play a manipulation wizard, not sure 5E is for you. Manipulation is an extremely limited option due to concentration. You have some options, you really need to search for them. grease doesn't require concentration. You do still have that option. You also have far fewer spell slots and must use them sparingly. You don't have easy access to scrolls or potions, so no additional spell reservoir. It all makes playing a manipulation wizard extremely difficult. It's definitely a different experience than 3E. It's nowhere near as weak and limited as 4E, but it's nowhere near as powerful as 3E.

I don't mind it myself. I had fun with powerful 3E casters. It's fun to have to work to find ways to be effective. I started using a spell I've never used before: animate objects. I destroyed some opposing creatures with it. Ten darts flying around a battlefield stabbing people is kind of fun.
 

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