D&D 5E How Things Get Lost IRL

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
There are countless examples of lost technologies. There are all kinds of megalithic structures the details of whose engineering remains mysterious. Or consider the Chinese Empire that created sooo many things, but by the time the Europeans came through, had forgotten they were the inventors of these “new technologies “. Medicinal use of maggots and leeches died out for centuries...until a decade or so ago it was discovered that they did certain things better than modern medicine and surgical techniques.

Sometimes, the inventors- and/or those around them- didn’t see the potential. Funding to develop the innovation dries up. After the inventor dies, so does his work. At least, until it gets rediscovered...

Sometimes, technology gets developed and marketed, but the market doesn’t support the innovation for long enough, and it withers away.

Some ideas & inventions are repressed for religious or political reasons.

Some inventions and ideas get rapidly supplanted by other ones deemed “better”....even if they aren’t.
 
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Quartz

Hero
In the real world, military technology did stay roughly the same for over 1500 years. A sword is a sword, though the size and shape may change somewhat. Romans used both chain and plate (to a modest extent). The literate class remained small throughout history until well after the advent of the printing press.

In a fantasy setting, a lost land can be explained by a cataclysm, an invasion by orcs or whoever who simply slaughtered every single inhabitant, or accidental magic.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
In the real world, military technology did stay roughly the same for over 1500 years. A sword is a sword, though the size and shape may change somewhat. Romans used both chain and plate (to a modest extent). The literate class remained small throughout history until well after the advent of the printing press.

In a fantasy setting, a lost land can be explained by a cataclysm, an invasion by orcs or whoever who simply slaughtered every single inhabitant, or accidental magic.

Go back far enough the literate class was really small in a few cases though. We do not have exact figures for Rome for example but they have found a lot of graffiti by lower class Romans and prices aimes at lower class Romans which implies they could read at least to some extent. They headteachers on street corners giving public lectures as well.

Universal literacy know but it was not just the elites who could read and write. I think the authors of Linear B IIRC were a very small group while some of the Egyptians deliberately made their writing harder to decipher in order to keep it exclusive.

The sword is a sword thing is a bit of a myth, military tactics changed a huge amount over 1500 years, You went from unarmored masses to hoplites to legions to cataphracts and then to Knights and then things like Tercio and Landsknect.
 

D&D owes more than a little of it's oeuvre to the pulps of the early 20th century - Burroughs, Howard, Lovecraft, etc. This was a period when Catastrophism, where the world was shaped by occasional, world-shaking, Biblical-style floods and earthquakes, was still a popular theory for geologic change and was often at the root of the 'lost civilizations' encountered in those works.
 


Quartz

Hero
The sword is a sword thing is a bit of a myth, military tactics changed a huge amount over 1500 years, You went from unarmored masses to hoplites to legions to cataphracts and then to Knights and then things like Tercio and Landsknect.

Yes, military tactics indeed changed over the centuries, but the basic form of the sword did not. A sword from 400 BC would be entirely recognisable and usable by someone in 1400 AD.

As [MENTION=277]jasper[/MENTION] alludes, a sword is a tool. How the tool is used is a separate question.
 

Oofta

Legend
I think it's always dangerous to say "D&D doesn't work like the real world" because that's not it's goal. Look at the whole "what's a gold piece worth" argument. Based on real world economics, a gold piece doesn't make a lot of sense, but we're talking a fantasy world not our reality; maybe gold is simply more plentiful but still scarce enough to be valued.

But when addressing this type of issue I try to do a logical "what-if" analysis. What if magic were real? What impact would it have?

D&D has all sorts of tropes and this one is a major one. Technological stagnation.
First, I have to admit I think the worlds with any line like "this tower has stood for 10,000 years..." is silly. Some elven civilizations might be able to make that claim, but a human civilization? Probably not.

So I don't assume that technology has been stagnant for thousands of years in my games. That doesn't mean that in the long run there will ever be an industrial revolution.

Let's take gunpowder as an example. Gunpowder was invented in the 9th century in China, but for a long time it's use was limited to bombs and simple rockets, it wasn't until the 15th century that we started using artillery and it wasn't until the 17th century that firearms were widely used. We tend to look at gunpowder and think only of modern firearms, but there was a long, long evolution of the technology. The first cannon would have been relatively inefficient and incredibly expensive when compared to what a moderately well trained war mage could do. Want to make things go boom? Get a mage and stop messing around with that flash powder.

In addition, I could see simple spells that could be used to ignite an enemy's gunpowder from a distance. After all a simple spark spark that would do no more than annoy a person would be enough to set off a keg of gunpowder. Then again, maybe the chemistry of gunpowder simply didn't work.

What about steam engines? Well, the first steam engine experiments on record were in first century Rome, it wasn't until the 17th century that we had anything that really worked. So even assuming the physics of a D&D world are similar enough to allow steam engines, that's a pretty big gap. But what if there were other issues? Would steam mephits look at a huffing-puffing steam engine as a mating call? Or could something that comes close to being a living creature spontaneously come to life? Have a few threshing machines develop a taste for flesh instead of wheat and they'll be banned pretty quick.

So where would the technology stagnate? Well, most D&D worlds assume we have pretty advance metallurgy. Plate mail is fairly common (whether anyone would wear it constantly like PCs do is a whole other question). Swords are not limited in any way to available material. Which makes sense for a civilization that has relatively advanced technology other than firearms and steam engines. The reason metal armor went out of fashion (and has now been replaced by kevlar and ceramic plates) is because of firearms. No firearms, not reason for metal armor to become obsolete.

Cheap paper and printing presses (cheap paper actually came first, no reason to develop a printing press if you can't afford to mass produce the books) could still be common. Advances in medical treatments would just be another type of healing magic.

So with a few logical assumptions, basic fantasy tropes do make sense.

The other trope is that civilisations get destroyed and everything collapses

In fantasy worlds you have magical cataclysms, and sometimes the victors are not interested in the conquered civilization's technology because the victor isn't always human.

I do think FR has seen way too many world-ending cataclysms. The "the world will end unless a hero/group of heroes can stop it" is far too common a theme IMHO. Threats to cities or regions? Sure. That would be cataclysmic enough. But a threat to the entire world? Meh. Not going to happen often.

However it can happen. One thing in my campaign is the idea that there was the equivalent of a magical nuclear war long ago, in part to justify ancient ruins and artifacts. In more recent times, some mages tried to re-invent the "magic nukes" and the gods put an end to the entire region.

Anyway, just my 2 coppers. Kind of fun to think about - what would the arc of history have looked like if we had magic but no gunpowder or steam engines?
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
The argument in favor of gunpowder weapons in a world of magic is the same as it is IRL: force multiplication.

Training a wizard- like training an archer- takes a lot of time and money. And some people will never “get it”, will never master the skills. It’s a lot easier to train people to follow a recipe for making gunpowder or to make & maintain weapon and others to man a cannon.

So while a single war-mage may have more power at his disposal, a company of artillery units will be very destructive for the relative time and money...and will be MUCH easier to replace.

Also, technically, the first steam engine predates the 1st century Romans:

Early in the first century A.D., a Greek inventor named Hero of Alexandria designed the world's first aeolipile, or primitive steam turbine. Heron's aeolipile consisted of a hollow sphere, mounted on a pair of tubes. Heated from below by fire, the tubes transported steam to the sphere, where it was released through another series of tubes projecting from the sphere's equator. This movement of steam through the device caused the sphere to revolve, demonstrating the potential for using steam as a means of propulsion.
 
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Zardnaar

Legend
Yes, military tactics indeed changed over the centuries, but the basic form of the sword did not. A sword from 400 BC would be entirely recognisable and usable by someone in 1400 AD.

As @jasper alludes, a sword is a tool. How the tool is used is a separate question.

Only in the most superficial way. Swords changed a lot from 400BC to the middle ages and renaissance. The greatsword for example did not get invented sooner because of metallurgy and the Roman Spatha for example was shorter and more basic than later swords. THe best weapons such as Damascus steel and the Viking sword their nobles used were a lot better than earlier weapons due to cutting power for example

There is videos on youtube demonstrating this, an ancient sword will do a nasty cut or cash on a carcass, a Roman era sword a deeper cut and the medieval swords can sheer the thing in half. The blades got longer and the the metal quality improved.
 

There is no logic in DnD for races or civilizations evolution.

A DM may choose Gods are actively changing the World:
A god create a race. Demons mostly destroy it. The same god save a few ones and relocate them else where and give them some castle and cities.


A DM may choose Distant Gods World,
He can try to make a logic evolution, but considering Magic, Demons, and Magical cataclysm it can be almost anything.

Your points are good, for a logic world.
Is there any logic in DnD?
 
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