D&D 5E Vancian to Zelaznian magic

KentDT · Jul 16, 2019

Blue said:
That's a problematic amount of flexibility. For example, there are a lot of out of combat spells that overlap what other classes do. Invisibility, Knock, Longstrider, Unseen Servant (for setting off traps), Detect Thoughts, etc. Heck, Disintegration. Being able to not only mimic much of what another single character can do, but being able to replace for multiple classes since it's any spell in your book - that really steps on toes.

Add in things like regular fly spell on a melee combatant, renewed all day, regular divination, and other things of that nature can really impact the ability to run adventures.

And this gets to be even more at higher levels. Imaging casting Wish to duplicate any other 8th level spell with just a minute or 2, as often as you want during the day. Cast Foresight without taking up your 9th level slot. Antipath/Sympathy - lasts 10 days, no concentration or expensive material component. How many Clone and Simulacrum spells can you cast in a day? Everyone in the party Mind Blanked every day.

And that's just looking at the beginning and end of the list. Most of the meat of the spell lists I haven't looked at.

I think I might not have explained well (again, thanks for helping me clarify). In my system wizards could “hang” as many spells as they have time but only cast a spell out of combat as a ritual, limited by their slots available each day. So, for example, it would be impossible to renew fly all day. It still only lasts 10 minutes, you still have to concentrate the whole time, you still lose 1 3rd level or higher slot each time you cast it. Even a 20th level wizard only has 3, 3rd level slots per day. That also makes the wizard no better at taking over roles of other classes than in RAW. The number of slots they can use to actually cast the spells is the same.

I did mention before that I expanded the exhaustion system to 10 levels and allow wizards to make a hard ability check to cast another spell beyond their daily limit but even on a success it costs a wizard a level of exhaustion. The check is progressively harder to make so, at most, a wizard might be able to greatly weaken themselves and cast maybe 5 more spells per day, at a progressively higher risk. So I’m not really thinking its an unbalancing problem.

KentDT · Jul 16, 2019

Seramus said:
I was suggesting that a faithful representation of Zelazny magic would resemble a more flexible version of how the Warlock casts spells. I feel like your version breaks the KISS rule a few times.

I understand what you’re saying but I guess we just disagree (and that’s OK, of course). I’ll admit it adds a little book keeping and player/character planning but not too much for my taste. I suppose it’ll help if any player of a wizard in my game has read and enjoys the Zelazny books and buys into my interpretation.

Enevhar Aldarion · Jul 16, 2019

If you have not done so, you could always grab a copy of the old Amber Diceless RPG and see how they did the magic system in that. Maybe it would give ideas for what you want to do.

Maxperson · Jul 16, 2019

Blue said:
I'm not quite sure how this works in practice. Can you walk me through this.

Say I'm a 6th level wizard. IF I want to cast spells quickly I need ot pre-cast them. So is this mean at some point actually picking a number of spells and taking time to cast them? Does that mean ahead of time I think of what I could want to do with my slots and pre-cast? If I may want to cast Lightning Bolt once or twice, Haste once or twice, Counterspell but likely once max, and Scortching Ray uplifted to 3rd once (for more precise targeting) or False like upast to 3rd level once that I then spend the time to pre-cast all of them at ritual speeds? (Plus all of how I want to do my lower level spells.) And it still locks me out of doing something like casting Copunterspell twice with my two 3rd level slots?

It seems like the time spent pre-casting is dependant on spells in your spellbook (expanding ever level if not more from found/bought spells) times spell slots and how you might want to use them, with some extra in there for spells that can be upcast. It sounds a high level caster might spend hours a day to pre-cast in all the different variations of what they want.

Also, many spells (divination, healing, etc) being able to be cast an unlimited number of times per day.

The spells don't go away until they are cast. Well, in the books they eventually go stale, but that takes weeks at least, possibly months. A high level wizard would not need to spend hours daily unless they ran themselves out of spells. Also, in the books there didn't appear to be any limit to the number you could hang as long as you spent the time to do it, but of course that wouldn't work for D&D.

For D&D the trade off would be in requiring the wizard to choose spells in advance, but allowing more spells to be cast daily. If you use your one counterspell in a combat, just take some time after the combat and hang another one.

It also opens the door for feats or class abilities to allow quick hanging of spells a limited number of times per day, or signature spells that you could always hang quickly.

It's an interesting idea, but it might be too powerful to add that many extra spells to the wizard's daily allotment.

Greenfield · Jul 16, 2019

Having read the books and considered this, there was one aspect that caught my eye: Casters "Hung" spells (i.e. prepared them) and they could stay there for a few days before fading. The character involved was specifically Merlin (no, not *that* Merlin), and he tended to hang a few defensive spells, an attack or two and that was it. As he put it, "After that it just came down to throwing raw power at each other."

That last part was the big difference between Zelazny's magic system and D&D/Vancian magic. Unused ability (i.e. spell slots) could be used as direct assaults, and presumably defenses. Just raw, formless magical power.

So if you want to use Amber style magic, all you really need is to define what raw magical attacks and defenses look like, from a mechanics point of view.

I wouldn't give them an element type (that is, they aren't Fire or Cold or Electricity or Acid or Sonic). They're just magic.

Now, does that mean that they'll bypass standing defenses, such as Fire Resistance? If so it makes those element-specific defense spells obsolete.

Do general "throw raw power at them" defenses apply to element specific attacks? As in, does a Fireball bypass a general defense?

I'm not sure. I'd almost class "raw power" as yet another element type, for the purpose of game mechanics.

Now this approach actually gives raw power something of an advantage, since you can always switch to it on the fly in combat. Any non-dedicated spell slot is instantly available for that sort of offense or defense.

But raw power magic can't do any of the specific things, like heal wounds, open doors, help someone fly or go invisible, so that's a weakness. That also means that caster's will most likely prepare/hang utility spells and perhaps some element specific attacks/defenses. Raw power is whatever is left over.

Just sort of rambling there, but I think I may be rambling in a workable direction. You are, of course, free to think otherwise.

Greenfield · Jul 16, 2019

Following up on my own ramble: In D&D, different classes have different spell lists. Some, like the Bard in D&D 3.*, were really light on combat spells. Like, nearly none. (Glitterdust actually counted as an offensive spell for a 3.* Bard. That's how starved they were for damage dealing spells.)

The Zelazny style of magic would tend to blur the lines from one class to another. Suddenly every caster of every stripe is a combat caster.

Not sure if that's a good thing or not. Leaning towards "not" though, since the different spell sets were one of the aspects that defined a class, the advantage you sought or the price you paid for choosing that class. It makes that choice almost meaningless in many ways.

Maxperson · Jul 17, 2019

Greenfield said:
Having read the books and considered this, there was one aspect that caught my eye: Casters "Hung" spells (i.e. prepared them) and they could stay there for a few days before fading. The character involved was specifically Merlin (no, not *that* Merlin), and he tended to hang a few defensive spells, an attack or two and that was it. As he put it, "After that it just came down to throwing raw power at each other."

That last part was the big difference between Zelazny's magic system and D&D/Vancian magic. Unused ability (i.e. spell slots) could be used as direct assaults, and presumably defenses. Just raw, formless magical power.

So if you want to use Amber style magic, all you really need is to define what raw magical attacks and defenses look like, from a mechanics point of view.

I wouldn't give them an element type (that is, they aren't Fire or Cold or Electricity or Acid or Sonic). They're just magic.

Now, does that mean that they'll bypass standing defenses, such as Fire Resistance? If so it makes those element-specific defense spells obsolete.

Do general "throw raw power at them" defenses apply to element specific attacks? As in, does a Fireball bypass a general defense?

I'm not sure. I'd almost class "raw power" as yet another element type, for the purpose of game mechanics.

Now this approach actually gives raw power something of an advantage, since you can always switch to it on the fly in combat. Any non-dedicated spell slot is instantly available for that sort of offense or defense.

But raw power magic can't do any of the specific things, like heal wounds, open doors, help someone fly or go invisible, so that's a weakness. That also means that caster's will most likely prepare/hang utility spells and perhaps some element specific attacks/defenses. Raw power is whatever is left over.

Just sort of rambling there, but I think I may be rambling in a workable direction. You are, of course, free to think otherwise.

If I remember correctly, raw power also took a lot more power to accomplish the same thing a refined spell could accomplish. So you hung a fireball, or used much more power to just destroy an area the size of a fireball.

Greenfield · Jul 17, 2019

Maxperson said:
If I remember correctly, raw power also took a lot more power to accomplish the same thing a refined spell could accomplish. So you hung a fireball, or used much more power to just destroy an area the size of a fireball.

I don't recall that particular detail, but it's been a few years since I read the books, and they weren't exactly written with game adaptations in mind. (The original Nine Princes in Amber series pre-dated D&D by at least a decade.)

If that were the case though, you'd think major wizardy types like Merlin would keep his hung spell pool damned near full.

But again, it's a story, and there was no requirement that things in there fit gamer logic. But it was (at least the original series) a really well written tale.

Maxperson · Jul 18, 2019

Greenfield said:
I don't recall that particular detail, but it's been a few years since I read the books, and they weren't exactly written with game adaptations in mind. (The original Nine Princes in Amber series pre-dated D&D by at least a decade.)

If that were the case though, you'd think major wizardy types like Merlin would keep his hung spell pool damned near full.

But again, it's a story, and there was no requirement that things in there fit gamer logic. But it was (at least the original series) a really well written tale.

Merlin often put it off because it was a hassle. He wasn't the most focused wizard out there. That and he had bot Frakir and Ghost to help him out of trouble.

KentDT · Jul 18, 2019

Greenfield said:
I don't recall that particular detail, but it's been a few years since I read the books, and they weren't exactly written with game adaptations in mind. (The original Nine Princes in Amber series pre-dated D&D by at least a decade.)

Yes, but the original series had nothing about this magic system. That all came in the second “Merlin” series, which was published after D&D came along. That’s why I referenced Zelazny’s attendance of Gen Con as Ed Greenwood’s guest and the possibility that the magic system explanation was in answer to criticisms of the Vancian “memorize and forget” that was the current D&D magic system.