D&D 5E can warlocks be good guys?

Also I just wanna point out that getting a "free lunch" wouldn't include your hitpoints being a D8 plus your constitution modifier.

And that all the "great power" your Pact gives you just makes you kind of comparable to the many, many other types of adventurers out there. So the Great Old Fey Demon that you may or may not have sold your soul to, who gave you dark evil magic power in return, made you strong enough to scrape out a win against Kobolds, and run in abject mortal terror from Ogres and Ghouls.

That's what a free lunch is, when you're a Warlock. At least at first.

PnPgamer said:

So how could i implement fiendish pact without selling my soul? What woulf the patron request? Would it seemingly request nothing, just as long as my character causes death and destruction?

Also does sold soul actually have any negative effects ingame?

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Nah, it's not soul-selling. It's a power exchange. One way to think of it is like the old concept of the Covenant -- you agree to be loyal to one particular patron, and to pass on service to them to your offspring, and, as long as the patron is served, the patron agrees to protect you and yours (by granting power to warlocks). It's a back-and-forth, not a reliance, and both sides can fail.

Another way to think of it: mortals are useful. In exchange for that utility, the mortal is granted some measure of power by a being that may or may not agree with their ultimate goal, but finds common alliance for the moment. Perhaps a proud, pure, noble knight accepts a fiendish pact because there are demons overrunning the land and for now, at least, devils and mortals are on the same side. Perhaps a high-minded revolutionary finds a demon to be a necessary ally in overthrowing the draconian, iron-fisted empire that has come to rule their hometown. None of these people are evil or pursuing evil goals, but evil hates evil as much as good hates evil.

One Good-aligned fiend-pact warlock I had was someone whose fiend was bound in their magical weapon, passed down from generation to generation as a family curse that they had to bear...the fiend was sealed within the weapon, and my character could call out its abilities while leaving it imprisoned. Of course, it schemed for release, but my character's lineage had been dealing with its schemes for generations, and they had it well in control (the possible plot thread of its successful release never came up in play, but would've been AWESOME).

I even envision Celestial-pact warlocks for non-good characters: the angels help those who ally with them, even if they don't share an outlook.

BigVanVader said:

Also I just wanna point out that getting a "free lunch" wouldn't include your hitpoints being a D8 plus your constitution modifier.

And that all the "great power" your Pact gives you just makes you kind of comparable to the many, many other types of adventurers out there. So the Great Old Fey Demon that you may or may not have sold your soul to, who gave you dark evil magic power in return, made you strong enough to scrape out a win against Kobolds, and run in abject mortal terror from Ogres and Ghouls.

That's what a free lunch is, when you're a Warlock. At least at first.

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Just like in real life, when some have to work hard for something, while others get to exactly the same place by cheating and being lazy. That would actually be an interesting character to play. a lazy bastard who makes fun of the wizard every time he starts telling about how difficult it was to be an apprentice, and mocks the cleric for how devout he needs to be, to get spells.

S_Dalsgaard said:

Just like in real life, when some have to work hard for something, while others get to exactly the same place by cheating and being lazy. That would actually be an interesting character to play. a lazy bastard who makes fun of the wizard every time he starts telling about how difficult it was to be an apprentice, and mocks the cleric for how devout he needs to be, to get spells.

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Which would be a great chance for turnabout when their patron shows up and goes "hey buddy, remember those cool powers I gave you? Well if you wanna keep 'em you better start doing my dirty work!"

PnPgamer said:

So how could i implement fiendish pact without selling my soul? What woulf the patron request? Would it seemingly request nothing, just as long as my character causes death and destruction?

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My suggestion, at least for infernal pacts, is that the patron offer the power for "free" in order too gain something you deeply want (protection, wealth, revenge). Then once you're hooked, he starts to add conditions and little favors you must do him in order to KEEP the power. Then he tells you some of the consequences of those favors (the bridge support you collected for me? Weakened the bridge to kill the Duke's nephew. I can protect you from the consequences though, no problem) and starts asking for bigger favors.

Devils understand loss aversion.

It's cool to make a Warlock's life interesting -- in the same way every PC, regardless of class, should live in interesting times -- but a little restraint is in order. You wouldn't want to cross the line between "interesting twists and unique challenges" and "I have decided the class you chose to play & I allowed you to play is actually unplayable in my campaign".

Let's not make the warlock the new paladin, eh?

S_Dalsgaard said:

Just like in real life, when some have to work hard for something, while others get to exactly the same place by cheating and being lazy. That would actually be an interesting character to play. a lazy bastard who makes fun of the wizard every time he starts telling about how difficult it was to be an apprentice, and mocks the cleric for how devout he needs to be, to get spells.

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I'm not entirely sure that relates to my post. And nobody cheated, nobody was lazy. In most versions of the Warlock, they sign some sort of contract, or they agree to some sort of verbal contract. Then they give something away, and gain something else in return. All I see is a fair deal.

BigVanVader said:

I'm not entirely sure that relates to my post. And nobody cheated, nobody was lazy. In most versions of the Warlock, they sign some sort of contract, or they agree to some sort of verbal contract. Then they give something away, and gain something else in return. All I see is a fair deal.

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I was just making a mediocre joke and didn't mean any offence.

Actually it can be a bit of a problem, that it is implied that the warlock character got his powers by making a deal, while others did a lot of studying for what mechanically is equal power levels.

As a DM I have a tendency to want to make the warlock pay the price of his powers in some way, by making his patron make demands, but that isn't really fair to the warlock player, as his character isn't more powerful than any other PC and the others don't have such demands hanging over them (except perhaps the paladin who has to follow his oath).

In character the warlock got his powers without working for them and has to pay the price, while out-of-game the player has made the warlock character the same way as the wizard made his and it is "unfair" to demand more of him than the wizard.

This makes a lot more sense in my head than in writing...

S_Dalsgaard said:

I was just making a mediocre joke and didn't mean any offence.

Actually it can be a bit of a problem, that it is implied that the warlock character got his powers by making a deal, while others did a lot of studying for what mechanically is equal power levels.

As a DM I have a tendency to want to make the warlock pay the price of his powers in some way, by making his patron make demands, but that isn't really fair to the warlock player, as his character isn't more powerful than any other PC and the others don't have such demands hanging over them (except perhaps the paladin who has to follow his oath).

In character the warlock got his powers without working for them and has to pay the price, while out-of-game the player has made the warlock character the same way as the wizard made his and it is "unfair" to demand more of him than the wizard.

This makes a lot more sense in my head than in writing...

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The emphasized part is mine and, I think, where a lot of contention for warlocks (or paladins and for some clerics) comes.

It is absolutely NOT "unfair" to demand more of the warlock PC than the wizard. The player had all the info in front of them, and for whatever reason -allegedly sometimes this has to do with a story- chose to be a warlock -again, allegedly- of their own free will.

If you don't want the "in-game/in-story demands" of a warlock PC, then don't choose to PLAY a warlock. There is nothing "unfair" about it.

steeldragons said:

If you don't want the "in-game/in-story demands" of a warlock PC, then don't choose to PLAY a warlock. There is nothing "unfair" about it.

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Why make some --theoretically mechanically balanced-- classes inherently more difficult to play than others?

What purpose does that serve?

(I mean, all PCs lives should be difficult because they're adventurers, so none of them are getting a free lunch. Or if they do get free lunch, it's probably a disguised Mimic that'll try to eat them!)