Ridding Elves and Half-Elves of Darkvision

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[MENTION=6704184]doctorbadwolf[/MENTION] and epithet

No.

Darkvision isn’t simpler than low light vision. Low light vision is simpler in terms of mechanics and intuitive cognisance.

No.

Ambushes in the dark CAN be accomplished without dark vision, and saying otherwise is patently absurd. If you really need to know how absurd, refer to any book on war.... any... at all.

Everything else you went on about didn’t tackle the core difference of opinion here so I won’t get drawn into pointless counterpoint over the debate you’d rather be having than the one this is really about.

Love this...
@doctorbadwolf and [MENTION=6796566]epithet[/MENTION]


No.

Darkvision isn’t simpler than low light vision. Low light vision is simpler both in terms of mechanics and intuitive cognisance. I didn’t talk about infravision etc. and wouldn’t want to see those return to the game.

No.

Ambushes in the dark CAN be accomplished without dark vision, and saying otherwise is patently absurd. If you really need to know how absurd, refer to any book on war.... any... at all.

Everything else you went on about didn’t tackle the core difference of opinion we have here so I won’t get drawn into pointless counterpoint over the debate you’d rather be having with me than the one I am actually involved in.

By all means add it to the discussion with your additional points with others, but please try to stick to the point when quoting me.

I don’t want what I am talking about confused in the minds of third parties by your responses.

Thank you.

Caliburn101 said:

Love this...
@doctorbadwolf and [MENTION=6796566]epithet[/MENTION]


No.

Darkvision isn’t simpler than low light vision. Low light vision is simpler both in terms of mechanics and intuitive cognisance. I didn’t talk about infravision etc. and wouldn’t want to see those return to the game.

No.

Ambushes in the dark CAN be accomplished without dark vision, and saying otherwise is patently absurd. If you really need to know how absurd, refer to any book on war.... any... at all.

Everything else you went on about didn’t tackle the core difference of opinion we have here so I won’t get drawn into pointless counterpoint over the debate you’d rather be having with me than the one I am actually involved in.

By all means add it to the discussion with your additional points with others, but please try to stick to the point when quoting me.

I don’t want what I am talking about confused in the minds of third parties by your responses.

Thank you.

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Returning Low Light without any other forms of special vision is a non starter. Different creatures have different levels of special vision. Even 5e has this.

I don't remember anyone saying that ambushes in the dark can't happen with dark vision. Someone was arguing that 5e darkvision makes it harder, but even they weren't claiming that they can't happen.

as to the end of your post, I'm sorry if it bugs you, but I'm not going to make separate posts just because you don't like a single post replying to you and to other threads of discussion in the thread.

5ekyu said:

Each torch lasts an hour, right? Weighs a pound. Lets say six to surround camp, say with watch twelve hour camp, 72 pounds of torches a day... 48 pounds if you go 8 hours only lit... Times a week on the road.

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Huh. Torches in my games last several hours. I don't think I'll be changing that to match RAW anytime soon. How odd.

Then again, we also have more common magic items, like glowrods, but that's just in my games.

5ekyu said:

maybe that wasn't toward me but... i do not have a problem with 5e vision, i have a problem with how 5e defines normal outdoors at night darkness as so severe that it makes common tropes like nocturnal hunters, travel/sentry by moonlight and camping outdoors practically no longer viable.

The error to me was not dropping low light, infravision, ultravision, cantelope vision, rose colored glasses vision and whatever other visions existed in the decades we have had - but in not having what would be effectively "dim light" cover normal nighttime lighting and leave the current "blinded" equivalent cover more extreme "worse than that" cases.

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Is a moonlit/starlit night darkness in 5e? I was pretty sure it is dim light.

I think it was toward me, even though I certainly said no such thing.

doctorbadwolf said:

Huh. Torches in my games last several hours. I don't think I'll be changing that to match RAW anytime soon. How odd.

Then again, we also have more common magic items, like glowrods, but that's just in my games.



Is a moonlit/starlit night darkness in 5e? I was pretty sure it is dim light.

I think it was toward me, even though I certainly said no such thing.

Click to expand...

5e torches last an hour.

5e outside at night even most moonlit nights is specifically listed as darkness and an exceptionally brilliant full moon is listed as maybe being enough for dim light.

5e darkness is effectively blinded.

All adds up to making the fairly routine camp outside at night on long trip not a thing that's really feasible for non-dv types. Unless every day gets you to a new building way stop or some such, the weight of lighting adds up.

Obviously this can be solved if every caravan Carrie's enough ubiquitous magic light items that they can surround themselves, but that's pretty off the norm as far as the tropes and setting references go.

5ekyu said:

5e torches last an hour.

5e outside at night even most moonlit nights is specifically listed as darkness and an exceptionally brilliant full moon is listed as maybe being enough for dim light.

5e darkness is effectively blinded.

All adds up to making the fairly routine camp outside at night on long trip not a thing that's really feasible for non-dv types. Unless every day gets you to a new building way stop or some such, the weight of lighting adds up.

Obviously this can be solved if every caravan Carrie's enough ubiquitous magic light items that they can surround themselves, but that's pretty off the norm as far as the tropes and setting references go.

Click to expand...

Well the idea that a moonlit night is total darkness is just stupid. The torch thing is annoying, but we play with fairly 4e/Eberron sensibilities in most of our worlds, so sun rods aren’t a big deal for us. It’s unwieldy for RAW groups, though.

We also don’t camp out in the open unless we have no choice or are in safe country, but that’s a whole other conversation.

The darkness thing is just plain bad, but the fix is definately not to change how vision works.

doctorbadwolf said:

Well the idea that a moonlit night is total darkness is just stupid. The torch thing is annoying, but we play with fairly 4e/Eberron sensibilities in most of our worlds, so sun rods aren’t a big deal for us. It’s unwieldy for RAW groups, though.

We also don’t camp out in the open unless we have no choice or are in safe country, but that’s a whole other conversation.

The darkness thing is just plain bad, but the fix is definately not to change how vision works.

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"The darkness thing is just plain bad, but the fix is definately not to change how vision works."
Yup

I find it hilarious that you are squabbling over the minutae while stubbornly refusing to see the real cause, and the easy fix. (Hint: millions of d20 players happily used working vision rules for decades, including the Pathfinder players that still use them today )

Way to make your life harder, guys ...but it's your game...

Caliburn101 said:

Love this...
@doctorbadwolf and [MENTION=6796566]epithet[/MENTION]


No.

Darkvision isn’t simpler than low light vision. Low light vision is simpler both in terms of mechanics and intuitive cognisance. I didn’t talk about infravision etc. and wouldn’t want to see those return to the game.

No.

Ambushes in the dark CAN be accomplished without dark vision, and saying otherwise is patently absurd. If you really need to know how absurd, refer to any book on war.... any... at all.

Everything else you went on about didn’t tackle the core difference of opinion we have here so I won’t get drawn into pointless counterpoint over the debate you’d rather be having with me than the one I am actually involved in.

By all means add it to the discussion with your additional points with others, but please try to stick to the point when quoting me.

I don’t want what I am talking about confused in the minds of third parties by your responses.

Thank you.

Click to expand...

I'll assume that you didn't mean for your post to come across as pompous and condescending as it did.

The issue isn't whether darkvision is less complicated than low light vision, because you apparently intend to keep darkvision in place for dwarves and other subterranean races. That makes the issue one of darkvision (one category) being less complicated that darkvision and low light vision both (two categories.) My point is that it is less complicated to have fewer categories. I would have thought that was obvious.

Regarding an ambush in the dark, sure... you can absolutely ambush in the dark. Once you have established the darkness, the ambush takes care of itself most of the time. If you would actually look at what I said, though, my point was that for a party lacking darkvision you would not have the darkness in the first place. People will have multiple light sources and will try to have the illumination extend out to typical encounter distances. In order to have an ambush in the dark, then, you first have to make it dark. However much effort you put into taking away the light sources could just as easily be used to add enough smoke, mist, rubble, etc. to provide cover or concealment to your ambushers, so nothing is gained by your insistence upon impenetrable darkness for some (but not all) of your PCs. Your "only darkness" approach is limiting.

I would suggest you worry less about your position being confused in the minds of third parties, and focus on your own understanding of the issue.

CapnZapp said:

I find it hilarious that you are squabbling over the minutae while stubbornly refusing to see the real cause, and the easy fix. (Hint: millions of d20 players happily used working vision rules for decades, including the Pathfinder players that still use them today )

Way to make your life harder, guys ...but it's your game...

Click to expand...

I think you'll find that the D&D 5e vision rules are a simplified version of the d20 vision rules. Darkvision and low-light vision have been combined, and 5e darkvision now only provides dim-light vision in total darkness, but it gives a more logical "twice as good" vision in dim light compared to the "twice as far" d20 low-light vision.

The light categories are almost the same, but renamed. The "bright light" of d20 is "daylight" in 5e, while d20 "normal light" is called "bright light" in 5e.

Perhaps if you were to point out the "real cause" I might be better able to see how using the d20 vision rules offer an "easy fix." I suppose I might be limited by the fact that I don't see the 5e vision rules, including elven darkvision, as being a problem in the first place.