Can Sharpshooter be used with a Net?

TaranTheWanderer · Mar 20, 2019

No damage (as in, incapable of doing harm) is different from doing 0 damage(which has the potential to do harm.

How do you know the difference?

Weapons that are capable of doing harm add your dex or strength to damage. So a blow gun does 1+dex damage.

Do you add your dex bonus to damage when you use a net. If your answer is ‘yes’, I would allow sharpshooter. If your answer is ‘no’, then I would disallow it.

My reading is a net is incapable of doing damage(hence the ‘-‘ instead of ‘0’.

It simply lets you restrain someone. Sharpshooter would let you ignore the penalty for range. I’d houserule a bonus to the save toget free since you can more accurately target a person in a way to better entangle them.

Edit: my exact point was made by a previous poster. Sorry to repeat.

Mistwell · Mar 20, 2019

Would it be cool to allow the feat to add the damage?

That's really the only question you need to answer for something like this. It's not like it will break your games. The only challenge it really poses is whether it makes the game feel weird because you don't think of nets that way, or whether you think it would be fun and interesting and believable to be able to do damage with nets this way.

Dausuul · Mar 20, 2019

FrogReaver said:
Because the net is a special attack that does 0 damage. It has unique rules for how it works and mod damage isn't included there.

Please cite the rule that says attacks with a net do not add ability modifier to damage.

Charlaquin · Mar 20, 2019

FrogReaver said:
Come on... this is basic grade school math.

If I have 3 oranges and ask you how many apples I have then you answer none or 0. Both are acceptable because 0 and none are the same thing. There is absolutely no disctinction ever between none of something and 0 of it.

Saying the net does no damage at all is a statement that gets mathematically written as 0. This grade school level understanding can further be realized by asking anyone how much damage attacking with a net does. The answer is none (aka zero).

This is just not correct. The reason we have a number for 0 (well, one of them) is to distinguish the mathematical symbol that represents a nil value from actual nothing. I have 0 apples, but I don’t have 0 floogltyflorps because there is no such thing as a floogltyflorp for me to have 0 of. Damage is not among the effects of hitting a creature with an attack with a net.

TaranTheWanderer · Mar 21, 2019

[MENTION=6795602]FrogReaver[/MENTION] I hate to disagree with you because I often do agree with you but, in this situation, the table in the book doesn’t say 0, it instead, has a dash, which I interpret as N/A. So you can’t add damage if damage is not applicable to the attack.

Now, you could maybe reskin that sucker as a bola...

DND_Reborn · Mar 21, 2019

So much nice stuff to come home to!

Charlaquin said:
Here’s another way to put it: a hypothetical Feat that could do the -5 to hit, +10 damage thing with any melee Attack (ignoring how overpowered that would be) could add 10 to the damage of an Unarmed Strike from a character with 8 Strength, even though the damage of their Unarmed Strike is 0. It could not add 10 to the damage of a shove or a grapple, because despite requiring the character to make an attack roll, damage is not the one of the results of a success on the attack roll for those maneuvers.

Correct, accept technically the shove is not an attack, rather a "special attack" resolved as an ability check. Either way, I agree with you that your hypothetical feat would not add damage to a shove.

FrogReaver said:
Come on... this is basic grade school math.

If I have 3 oranges and ask you how many apples I have then you answer none or 0. Both are acceptable because 0 and none are the same thing. There is absolutely no disctinction ever between none of something and 0 of it.

Saying the net does no damage at all is a statement that gets mathematically written as 0. This grade school level understanding can further be realized by asking anyone how much damage attacking with a net does. The answer is none (aka zero).

Actually, what we are discussing is the difference between the set of integers (which includes 0) and an empty set. A punch by a character with a STR 8 is 1 - 1 = 0, it is in the integer set to begin with and stays there. The net "—" damage represents the empty set. There are no numbers in it, and thus nothing to add 10 damage to. You would need a 0 in the net set of numbers, and you don't. If the damage was listed in the PHB as 0, then it would be subject to ability score modifiers, features such as Archery Fighting Style would also add 2 damage to the net. But since it isn't listed as "0", you can't add or subtract from it IMO. Of course, a DM can always rule as they please.

Dausuul said:
Please cite the rule that says attacks with a net do not add ability modifier to damage.

Sorry, but I love it when people play this card.

Of course there is no rule! 5E is build on a lack of rules and in many ways is as flimsy as a house built of cards...

Charlaquin said:
This is just not correct. The reason we have a number for 0 (well, one of them) is to distinguish the mathematical symbol that represents a nil value from actual nothing. I have 0 apples, but I don’t have 0 floogltyflorps because there is no such thing as a floogltyflorp for me to have 0 of. Damage is not among the effects of hitting a creature with an attack with a net.

Precisely, couldn't agree with you more! But I could have sworn my aunt got me a floogltyflorp for a gift last year... Hmm, maybe it was a grolfytlgoolf...

FrogReaver · Mar 21, 2019

TaranTheWanderer said:
@FrogReaver I hate to disagree with you because I often do agree with you but, in this situation, the table in the book doesn’t say 0, it instead, has a dash, which I interpret as N/A. So you can’t add damage if damage is not applicable to the attack.

Now, you could maybe reskin that sucker as a bola...

Sure. The biggest issue I take issue with is the attempts of others to make no damage distinct from 0 damage. That can’t be done. No damage and 0 damage are the same thing.

I also take issue with your description above. Damage is technically applicable to the net because the net does 0 damage. 0 is identical to none (that’s just what 0 means). Does that necessitate that adding 10 damage to the net equates to 10. Nope. F(x) = 0 is a function that always evaluates to 0 no matter if you replace x with x+10 or x+10000000. In other words we already have a mathematical model involving 0 that models what you are claiming the feat does.

Thus Damage is applicable, even in your interpretation, it’s just that the damage always evaluates to 0 in your interpretation.

FrogReaver · Mar 21, 2019

dnd4vr said:
So much nice stuff to come home to!

Correct, accept technically the shove is not an attack, rather a "special attack" resolved as an ability check. Either way, I agree with you that your hypothetical feat would not add damage to a shove.

Actually, what we are discussing is the difference between the set of integers (which includes 0) and an empty set. A punch by a character with a STR 8 is 1 - 1 = 0, it is in the integer set to begin with and stays there. The net "—" damage represents the empty set. There are no numbers in it, and thus nothing to add 10 damage to. You would need a 0 in the net set of numbers, and you don't. If the damage was listed in the PHB as 0, then it would be subject to ability score modifiers, features such as Archery Fighting Style would also add 2 damage to the net. But since it isn't listed as "0", you can't add or subtract from it IMO. Of course, a DM can always rule as they please.

Sorry, but I love it when people play this card. Of course there is no rule! 5E is build on a lack of rules and in many ways is as flimsy as a house built of cards...

Precisely, couldn't agree with you more! But I could have sworn my aunt got me a floogltyflorp for a gift last year... Hmm, maybe it was a grolfytlgoolf...

What is damage? Answer: a loss of hp. What does 1 damage mean. It means you lost 1 hp. What does 0 damage mean? It means you lost 0 hp, that your hp remained unchanged.

When a net is used on you then you lose 0 hp. The same with the sleep, when sleep is used on you then you lose 0 hp. Thus, Both sleep and the net deal 0 damage. The null set doesn’t apply to them because as just demonstrated, 0 damage has a meaning and both the net and sleep effects fall under that meaning.

f(x) = 0 is the mathematical model you are looking for to describe your interpretation of net damage. That is, no matter what input you use you always evaluate to 0. (This is in stark contrast to the null set)

FrogReaver · Mar 21, 2019

Charlaquin said:
This is just not correct. The reason we have a number for 0 (well, one of them) is to distinguish the mathematical symbol that represents a nil value from actual nothing. I have 0 apples, but I don’t have 0 floogltyflorps because there is no such thing as a floogltyflorp for me to have 0 of. Damage is not among the effects of hitting a creature with an attack with a net.

Damage is like an apple not a floogittflorp. Damage exists as we can see with short swords and great swords. Since damage exists within the game then in the game we define no damage with 0 not with the null set.

hawknsparrow · Mar 21, 2019

Johnny3D3D said:
Can Sharpshooter be used with a net?

My initial thought was no, but, upon review of how things are worded, it appears that "maybe" might be the more accurate answer.

Sharpshooter states that it requires taking a penalty to the attack roll. Hitting with a net does indeed require an attack roll, so that condition can be met.

Sharpshooter further states that success means the attack deals +10 damage. There is no mention of the damage boost requiring dice rolling or anything of that nature, simply +10 damage. 0 + 10 = 10

As always, work with your GM. I would have you quest to go visit a magic user who might infuse it with shock or something that you could use once every long rest... but as a player you would have to be cool with the fact that once you use it and word gets out.... that something else may want it and try to stalk you to take it.... you may be looking over your shoulder until you can spirit it off to another town or region before you use it again.