D&D 5E Wizard Spells

G

Guest 6801328

Guest
You're discounting labour cost and carrying cost. How much do you need to pay a scribe capable of copying a 5th level spell? How much do you need to offer to get the attention of a 9+ level Wizard to spend the time?

How long is the spell going to sit on the shelf keeping your investment frozen? What eventual rate of return will you require to tie up cash in such an illiquid investment?

Oh lord.

This reminds me of sitting in meetings with junior financial analysts who throw around software acronyms as if they understand what they mean.

Clearly you don't want to consider what I'm describing, which is fine. Nobody is forcing you to. I just think it raises an interesting question that might lead to an interesting mechanic.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

G

Guest 6801328

Guest
A couple of points on this
3) The above tends to assume that wizards are common place and still fairly common at high levels which goes against all explanations or attempts at demography I've seen

Honestly my own preference is for wizards to be quite rare, which mostly solves the problem, but in many campaign worlds (including Forgotten Realms) they're pretty much everywhere.

4) Specialist knowledge has been preciously guarded throughout history - guilds often protected their techniques and methods carefully and punished attempts to use those outside of the guide.

Yes, and that's another "story" explanation that may help. But what happens when your player meets a wizard in the same guild? Why wouldn't the wizard just say, "Sure! Copy all my spells!"

5) at the end of the day, it's a game and it's part of the fiction for spells to be hard to get. I'd be actively disappointed if my DM let me get access to the spells of any wizard around.

Exactly.

All I'm saying is that a simple little mechanic that makes spell copying challenging/risky (sort of like the "Arcane Signature" mentioned earlier, but less kludgy) could consistently explain why spells are rare, and eliminate the need for a lot of hand-waving b.s. that players will see right through.

Here's a scenario I want to avoid: you're starting a new campaign and TWO players want to both play Wizards. "Hey, Bob, let's make sure we don't take any of the same spells...ever...because we can always just copy from each other."
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Olive

Explorer
All fair enough except...

Here's a scenario I want to avoid: you're starting a new campaign and TWO players want to both play Wizards. "Hey, Bob, let's make sure we don't take any of the same spells...ever...because we can always just copy from each other."

Could you just tell them not to be so annoying?
 

G

Guest 6801328

Guest
All fair enough except...
Could you just tell them not to be so annoying?

Yes. But that won't work at all tables.

More importantly, though, there are a lot of shades of grey in between. Two wizards are unlikely to choose exactly the same spells at each level, even if they're not intentionally colluding. So do you let them copy from each other? "Hey, we both took Counterspell, but you took Fireball and I took Lightning Bolt...wanna trade?"

If they're allowed to do this then you're really encouraging them to start colluding. Personally I don't like telling players, "Yeah, I know the mechanics encourage you to do X, but I'd really rather have you roleplay so can you just cooperate?" I would much rather point to a mechanic and say, "Sure, you can copy...but there's an X% chance it will get erased from your own spellbook."
 

I rule that a spellbook is specific to a particular spellcaster. It is written in their own notation, using their own assumptions and ideas, focusing on what is important to them. In other words, spellbooks are crib-sheets rather than recipe books. This means that one caster cannot learn a spell from another caster's book unless either the book's author is there to explain it or they have time and resources to research the author's magical style (both of which require downtime).

So, if a wizard turns up to the wizard's guild and wants to learn spells, they need to arrange some training time from other wizards, not just read their books. This service is certainly available (it is why guild's exist!) but will cost something, either good-will or favours or gold. The guild does, however, provide free training in two spells every time the spellcaster gains a level.

This goes both ways, of course - the PC is expected to share the cool spells they find.
 

cbwjm

Seb-wejem
Personally, I think players should be able to freely trade their wizard spells between each other. It likely isn't even going to be an issue until they've gained a few levels and have some money available to cover the costs of copying spells. Even then, they may have a larger list of spells to choose from but they are still limited in number prepared. I really don't see an issue with it.

Sent from my [device_name] using EN World mobile app
 

cbwjm

Seb-wejem
I rule that a spellbook is specific to a particular spellcaster. It is written in their own notation, using their own assumptions and ideas, focusing on what is important to them. In other words, spellbooks are crib-sheets rather than recipe books. This means that one caster cannot learn a spell from another caster's book unless either the book's author is there to explain it or they have time and resources to research the author's magical style (both of which require downtime).

So, if a wizard turns up to the wizard's guild and wants to learn spells, they need to arrange some training time from other wizards, not just read their books. This service is certainly available (it is why guild's exist!) but will cost something, either good-will or favours or gold. The guild does, however, provide free training in two spells every time the spellcaster gains a level.

This goes both ways, of course - the PC is expected to share the cool spells they find.
I tend towards the other extreme in that a wizard can learn a spellbook. This means that after a time of study they can use a captured spellbook to prepare their spells. They'll still want to take time to copy spells into a travel book since carting around a small library isn't practical.

Captured spellbooks also tend to have overlap, almost every wizard is going to have magic missile and mage armour in their book, but a captured necromancer's spellbook will likely have a larger list of necromancy spells that the PC wizard can learn.

Sent from my [device_name] using EN World mobile app
 

Olive

Explorer
If they're allowed to do this then you're really encouraging them to start colluding. Personally I don't like telling players, "Yeah, I know the mechanics encourage you to do X, but I'd really rather have you roleplay so can you just cooperate?" I would much rather point to a mechanic and say, "Sure, you can copy...but there's an X% chance it will get erased from your own spellbook."

I was going to post something but then [MENTION=6788732]cbwjm[/MENTION] said what I thought. I just don't see this as a huge issue, especially as they're going to want to prepare different spells regardless so they can maximise the things they can do.
 

Nagol

Unimportant
Oh lord.

This reminds me of sitting in meetings with junior financial analysts who throw around software acronyms as if they understand what they mean.

Clearly you don't want to consider what I'm describing, which is fine. Nobody is forcing you to. I just think it raises an interesting question that might lead to an interesting mechanic.

Thanks for the comparison, but I do understand the terms just fine. I'll use small words and directly respond to your points individually so no one gets lost.


I think maybe the point I'm trying to explore is being completely missed. Sure, you can always make up story reasons why a particular NPC wizard won't let a player copy spells, but it doesn't solve the problem (which has honestly never occurred to me until this thread) that from an Econ 101 standpoint under the current rules the cost of simply buying new spells should be 25gp/level plus some kind of profit margin, because there's nothing intrinsic to spells that keeps them from being copied an unlimited number of times.

Although whole book is composed of a bunch of 25 gp/level spells, the book is worth less to any prospective buyer because (a) some spells duplicate what they already know, (b) some spells are of no interest to a prospective buyer, and (c) the admittedly small chance of trap or trick buried in its pages.

You can wave your hands and say, "Well, no Wizard is going to do that just to make a few extra gold pieces." But imagine what would happen if an NPC offered 25 gp/spell level to copy a player's spellbook. Wouldn't most players, especially most low-level players, jump at this chance?

In my experience, no. Players tend to be somewhat paranoid when it comes to losing their spellcasting capability. They are often willing to let another PC copy a few spells, but they don't want to give their spell book over to someone to use for much of the day in case something happens: attempted theft, willful destruction, accidental destruction, or something happens to the owner and he's forced to abandon the books from unexpected adventure rearing its head. What I have seen happen, is the PC will charge either a much higher fee for access or offer to write the spell out (with commensurate pay for time and materials) and let the purchaser copy from that. The PCs feel, quite rightly I think, that the loss of their spell book would substantially harm their PC. That second option is often the start of the creation of a backup spell book for the PC, in fact.

And if they would, so would NPCs. Which means logically all they would have to do is find some low level Wizards and make an offer. The DM is free to make up reasons why they wouldn't accept the offer, but it's pretty clear to the player that the DM just doesn't want them to get spells that easily.

I'm happy for the PCs to gain spells. It's not like I can stop them: with 2 automatic spells per level, the RBDM trick of never including spells for the arcanist to learn thankfully is quashed. PCs will reasonably frequently find spell books and discover their worth on the open market is lower than the cost of creation AND buyers can be difficult to find BECAUSE spells are reasonably easy to locate for those with inclination and cash. But an unknown quantity won't be let near a spell book without a large incentive. Even a known associate will be restricted because there is always the chance of something going wrong. The personal cost of a disaster to too high.

All I'm saying is that some kind of mechanic that imposes risk/limits on spell copying would make the current difficulty of acquiring new spells more believable.
I don't disagree. I just don't discount the risks already in place in the game world. I have never seen a player specifically take the time to create multiple books for the express purpose of selling access to copies to prospective buyers and yes, buyers do approach the PCs occasionally to copy from their books. Typically, they are rebuffed because the PC has better things to do.
 
Last edited:

G

Guest 6801328

Guest
Thanks for the comparison, but I do understand the terms just fine. I'll use small words and directly respond to your points individually so no one gets lost.

Reading the rest of your post I realize now you misconstrued what I was describing, which was not that players or NPCs would prepare entire books and then hope to find buyers (which might also occur in some situations) but merely that they would opportunistically sell access to individuals who wanted to make copies themselves. No labor costs, no carrying costs, no IRR. So, apologies for rolling my eyes at your use of the terminology; it didn't apply to what I was describing but I see now we were talking about different things.

capability....commensurate...substantially...

Whoah, whoah, whoah...too many syllables. My head is hurting.

I don't disagree. I just don't discount the risks already in place in the game world. I have never seen a player specifically take the time to create multiple books for the express purpose of selling access to copies to prospective buyers and yes, buyers do approach the PCs occasionally to copy from their books. Typically, they are rebuffed because the PC has better things to do.

I'm not actually worried about these behaviors. My "what if" examples are just thought experiments to demonstrate that the presumed scarcity of spells is not economically realistic. It bugs me for the same reason that the economy for magic items often requires awkward, untenable explanations. If/when players push against the limits of those explanations I'd rather have a clean mechanic, rather than having to make up more b.s. reasons.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Remove ads

Top