D&D 5E Thoughts on this article about Black Culture & the D&D team dropping the ball?

Dannyalcatraz · Oct 24, 2017

lkj said:
Huh. My memory of Nyambe was that is was very much intended as a D&D setting, with orc tribes (with a much different flavor) and the rest. And I'd even intended to drop it in to my game. But I'll admit it has been a very long time since I looked at it. I just remember really liking what they had done.

You could, and if you did, most wouldn't notice. But it would be culturally anachronistic relative to the fantasized versions of cultures typically found in D&D (and other FRPGs, FWIW).

DeJoker · Oct 24, 2017

Dannyalcatraz said:
Oh, you're talking racism as simulated in the game, not the real issue of the article that kicked off this thread.

Well, I'll give you Half-Elf & Half-Orc, but that's it.

"Halfling" arose for legal reasons. Gary Gygax wasn't in JRRT's league as a linguist, but he wasn't a slouch. According to some sources, "halfling" comes from similar sources as JRRT's "hobbit". GG warped the Scots word hauflin or the German surname "Helbing", meaning an awkward rustic teenager, who is neither man nor boy, and so half of both. Another word for halfling is hobbledehoy or hobby. (See what JRRT did there?)

Dwarf? That's straight out of myth & legend.

Yep I was talking about game related racism -- but you know a funny thing about racism is it is racism regardless of its context. If it is accepted freely within a game context it will generally be overlooked or accepted outside of a game context. Its called being aware of offensive and derogatory terms and choosing not to use them in life and in game -- unless in game the purpose is to reflect someone who is racist for purposes of the story.

So as for Hauflin or Hobbledehoy -- those are two rather derogatory terms which makes both Halfling and Hobbit terms based off of derogatory terms which could then arguably be stated they are themselves derogatory terms -- purposeful or not. Again I stated 75% on those. Hin on the other hand is not a derogatory term at all. The only pre-use for it was measurement of 12 pints of liquid or @1.5 gallons.

As for Dwarf you will see I said 50% on that one -- because sure in some regions it comes straight from myth & legend but in other regions it does not.

So why use a semi-derogatory term when you do not have to -- oh because it is an accepted word to use -- well you know there were various terms that "used to be" accepted referring to the race this thread was initially about that are now considered to be quite racists and such most aware folks do not use these terms, while others that are unaware and those who are outright prejudice still use these terms. So I ask you again why use a term that is even semi-derogatory when you do not have to?

Note I am not picking on your comment specifically I am answering all the comments with yours since it had all the elements and thus made it fairly easy.

Alexemplar · Oct 24, 2017

DeJoker said:
Okay it is basically common knowledge that the world has different races and that we refer to 4 of these races via derogatory terms (albeit some a bit arguable but why do it even it is only possible) those names being Half-Orc, Half-Elf, Half-Ling and Dwarf. Now the first to are definitely 100% human based derogatory terms for someone that is a "Half-Breed" also a derogatory term. Further it is obvious that they are human derogatory terms because they denote the race as being half-not human while an Orc or an Elf would most likely refer to their respective half-race derogatorily as Half-Human. That is perhaps the most blatant. The next Half-ling is that really a race name or is it a derogatory term referencing the races diminutive height -- I am going with 75% that this is a derogatory term as D&D actually at one time called the race Hin. It is perhaps commonly accepted because that is what J. R. Tolkien called them but that does not necessarily mean that he did not inadvertently create a racist term. The last which I am on the fence a bit more about is Dwarf I call this one 50% racist as the Norse had that term and they were highly respected so not a derogatory term in their eyes but for nearly every other race it was a reference to a group of humans by a name that denoted they were different and less. Then again J.R. Tolkien referred to them as such. Now before anyone gets their knickers in a bunch I am not saying this was done overtly on purpose to me it is just another case for that laziness that I spoke about before and J.R. Tolkien was simply a man of his time and we all know -- times the are a changin'.

Personally I do not have any of those 4 seemingly derogatory names as the names for those races mine (in order stated above) Urug, fFolk, Hin, and Khuzdul -- now my world does have the derogatory terms but you use that for one of these races be prepared to be corrected and/or shunned for being a bigot.

I've never heard of this referred to as "the 4 common common aspects of racism".

S'mon · Oct 24, 2017

Lylandra said:
For example, I'm from Germany. And I'm so annoyed whenever a "german based" person or a "Germany based" region in a fantasy setting is somehow related to this setting's version of Nazis and autoritanism

Mystara has this stereotype with the Hattians; originating with Baron Ludwig Von Hendriks in the Cook/Marsh Expert set, carried forward by Aaron Allston in Dawn of the Emperors and then the Heldannic (ie Teutonic) knights. Running Mystara recently I found it a bit problematic in that you get this "German villain culture" shoehorned in to "Byzantine empire culture" (Thyatis), with no connection to the more nuanced Norse (Northern Reaches) culture to the north, beyond "good Sunni Arab culture" (Ylaruam) which in turn has no connection to "Bad Shia Muslim culture" (Sind) far to the west. It's a very '80s mish-mash and kinda feels much more dated than more fantastical stuff like the Wilderlands.

Flexor the Mighty! · Oct 24, 2017

Alexemplar said:
I've never heard of this referred to as "the 4 common common aspects of racism".

Me either. Then again I have never heard anyone say that terms used in a RPG to differentiate different races was racist that could actually spill into real life. Almost comes across as a parody of a SJW gamer type or something.

dagger · Oct 24, 2017

Alexemplar said:
I've never heard of this referred to as "the 4 common common aspects of racism".

Me neither. But I dont have a lot of free time to play D&D as it is, and frankly I am glad he wrote it, I needed a laugh.

Osgood · Oct 24, 2017

I think the articles makes a good point. Unfortunately, WotC wedged themselves between a rock and a hard place with this.

The Forgotten Realms is over 30 years old, and reflects the sensibilities of the time and the generation of the creator and early contributors, so it's not surprising that parts of the world are presented in a less-than-enlightened fashion. Perhaps it would have been best to update these parts of the setting, but nostalgia being a potent force for many players (and given the reaction to changes made in the 4E presentation of the Realms), it not surprising they kept Chult as is.

The Realms have never been my favorite setting, but to be honest I'm not sure any of the existing settings could have handled an adventure like ToA terribly well in that respect. The Realms and Greyhawk are largely Tolkein-inspired, while Dark Sun feels like something from Howard, and Eberron is a blend of pulp tropes, and the adventure wouldn't make much sense for Plansecape, Spelljammer, or Ravenloft. As much as I want to see these settings supported again, perhaps WotC should consider building a brand new setting from the ground up to reflect modern ideas.

DeJoker · Oct 24, 2017

Alexemplar said:
I've never heard of this referred to as "the 4 common common aspects of racism".

I am not surprised - mainly because most players are completely unaware of it and further I would guess most do not even give it a second thought perhaps writing it off as just some "parody of a SJW gamer type or something" or just something to laugh at and further some of these same folks get all huffy over their own little window of racism. Not that they do not have a right to get huffy over that since in my book all racism is bad but you would think they of all folks would be more aware of racism as a whole. Do I fault folks for not being unaware - nope but I do fault folks who are aware and then consciously choose to continue to support racism as if it being in a game makes it some how less real and thus an okay thing to do. I wonder how they would feel if someone started using their personal subject of racism in a game and belittled it just as equally. Would it be okay then? Some how I doubt it.

Personally I feel we should judge a person by their character not by the color of their skin, or their height, or their weight, or their <insert some physical characteristic here>.

Or as the German individual pointed out how folks keep equating Germany to a small window of time of its existence compared to the totality of its existence due to a stereotypical form of racism. This might get a little sticky I presume if what you are trying to portray is that time period of Germany's history but perhaps they are only meaning in cases where that is not the specific case -- not sure on that one perhaps @Lylandra will clarify what they mean.

Dannyalcatraz · Oct 24, 2017

DeJoker said:
Yep I was talking about game related racism -- but you know a funny thing about racism is it is racism regardless of its context. If it is accepted freely within a game context it will generally be overlooked or accepted outside of a game context.

No. It isn't.

Its called being aware of offensive and derogatory terms and choosing not to use them in life and in game -- unless in game the purpose is to reflect someone who is racist for purposes of the story.

That exception in this context swallows your rule. AFAIK, the only truly intentionally racist RPG is RaHoWa, maybe F.A.T.A.L.- everything else we're discussing is more akin to sloppy research and insensitivity.

So as for Hauflin or Hobbledehoy -- those are two rather derogatory terms which makes both Halfling and Hobbit terms based off of derogatory terms which could then arguably be stated they are themselves derogatory terms -- purposeful or not.

The term itself is not derogatory- it's akin to calling a kid a "tween". So, not buying your position here at all.

As for Dwarf you will see I said 50% on that one -- because sure in some regions it comes straight from myth & legend but in other regions it does not.

We know where GG mined his dwarves from. The fact that there are cultures in which the same term or a false friend is a slur doesn't make his use in the game racist in any way.

So why use a semi-derogatory term when you do not have to -- oh because it is an accepted word to use -- well you know there were various terms that "used to be" accepted referring to the race this thread was initially about that are now considered to be quite racists and such most aware folks do not use these terms, while others that are unaware and those who are outright prejudice still use these terms.

You mean the terms that systematically stripped my people of their tribal or national identities?

The ONLY people who didn't think the terms I bet you're thinking of were racist or deneaning were the people using the terms to refer to those unlike themselves. You might want to talk to more members of "the race this thread was initially about" before you continue down this line of thought.

lowkey13 · Oct 24, 2017

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D&D 5E Thoughts on this article about Black Culture & the D&D team dropping the ball?

Dannyalcatraz

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S'mon

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